My Review

[mjb]

1. I agree the beginning and end are the strongest.
2. I hate the giants and the haruchai being poorly characterized (exception Stave who has become truly wonderful). In fact brutally speaking I am not sure even why we need the Humbled and the giants in the story so far. They are pretty useless except extra muscle. And I am sick of the we trust linden-we hate linden-shut up you guys dynamic.
3. I love Stave. I like Covenant. I am ok with Linden
4. I found the section with SHE totally a waste of space. We really do NOT need another Huge Horrible Thing here.
5. I found the endless "what will we do with the croyel/jeremiah" took too damn long. And it was repetitive, so we could kill off both Liand and Anele.
6. I did find Linden whining a bit too much. OTOH, geez she's let the Worm loose - I can see why this jars her more confident Zen from the first two books. Still, she has always been a whiner, and I felt she whined less in the first two books of LC. This is an unfortunate regression.
7. Covenant was cool, though he only started kicking butt in the last 150 pages or so.
8. Anand who was a cool character earlier if a bit wussy, dies and really just gets wiped out to little purpose.
9. I like Joan and Roger going to happy places.
10. I thought the Ardent was kind of wasted.
11. Oooh I like Marhtiir. He's not that well developed but I like him.
12. Oooh I dislike Pahni. She's not that well developed and she annoys me. Never found the Anand hookup believeable. For proper bonding see Sunder-Hollian.

So in short: some good pieces, among a lot of dross. Stave is easily the best developed non core character in the Chronicles (although as a result he really isn't "Haruchai" anymore - not that that's a bad thing.

Honestly my feeling is SRD needs a good editor. He always does, since he tends to overwrite. And the Last Chronicles, while its got some awesome stuff (I really LIKED FR), needs a brutal mean inconsiderate editor beating SRD to cutting stuff. This book needed about 100 pages shaved from it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

1. I agree the beginning and end are the strongest.
2. I hate the giants and the haruchai being poorly characterized (exception Stave who has become truly wonderful). In fact brutally speaking I am not sure even why we need the Humbled and the giants in the story so far. They are pretty useless except extra muscle. And I am sick of the we trust linden-we hate linden-shut up you guys dynamic.
3. I love Stave. I like Covenant. I am ok with Linden
4. I found the section with SHE totally a waste of space. We really do NOT need another Huge Horrible Thing here.
5. I found the endless "what will we do with the croyel/jeremiah" took too damn long. And it was repetitive, so we could kill off both Liand and Anele.
6. I did find Linden whining a bit too much. OTOH, geez she's let the Worm loose - I can see why this jars her more confident Zen from the first two books. Still, she has always been a whiner, and I felt she whined less in the first two books of LC. This is an unfortunate regression.
7. Covenant was cool, though he only started kicking butt in the last 150 pages or so.
8. Anand who was a cool character earlier if a bit wussy, dies and really just gets wiped out to little purpose.
9. I like Joan and Roger going to happy places.
10. I thought the Ardent was kind of wasted.
11. Oooh I like Marhtiir. He's not that well developed but I like him.
12. Oooh I dislike Pahni. She's not that well developed and she annoys me. Never found the Anand hookup believeable. For proper bonding see Sunder-Hollian.

You really don't know most of this until the last book is finished and the story is complete.

[mjb]

don't understand your comment at all? You're refrerring to point #2?
Please clarify.

BTW, it's worth listing I think roughly my order of preferred books from best liked to least liked just to show my biases:

In the first two chronicles

1. The Wounded Land (What can I say I really liked it)
2. The Power That Preserves (Mhoram's stuff)
3. The Illearth War
4. White Gold Wielder (powerful ending, found the beginning too slow)
5. Lord Foul's Bane (good intro to series, a lot of whining)
6. The One Tree (dunno why people like this, it's soooo slow and Covenant is paralyzed for the middle third and I felt so betrayed at the time finding out how lame the elohim and bhraithrair (sic?) were after hearing tales of them and finding the one tree really wasnt the answer and the whole book almost could have been skipped)

Last Chronicles

1. FR (fast paced, exciting, great time stuff)
2. RE (a little slow)
3. AATE (major structural issues)

[/quote]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

1. I agree the beginning and end are the strongest.
2. I hate the giants and the haruchai being poorly characterized (exception Stave who has become truly wonderful). In fact brutally speaking I am not sure even why we need the Humbled and the giants in the story so far. They are pretty useless except extra muscle. And I am sick of the we trust linden-we hate linden-shut up you guys dynamic.
3. I love Stave. I like Covenant. I am ok with Linden
4. I found the section with SHE totally a waste of space. We really do NOT need another Huge Horrible Thing here.
5. I found the endless "what will we do with the croyel/jeremiah" took too damn long. And it was repetitive, so we could kill off both Liand and Anele.
6. I did find Linden whining a bit too much. OTOH, geez she's let the Worm loose - I can see why this jars her more confident Zen from the first two books. Still, she has always been a whiner, and I felt she whined less in the first two books of LC. This is an unfortunate regression.
7. Covenant was cool, though he only started kicking butt in the last 150 pages or so.
8. Anand who was a cool character earlier if a bit wussy, dies and really just gets wiped out to little purpose.
9. I like Joan and Roger going to happy places.
10. I thought the Ardent was kind of wasted.
11. Oooh I like Marhtiir. He's not that well developed but I like him.
12. Oooh I dislike Pahni. She's not that well developed and she annoys me. Never found the Anand hookup believeable. For proper bonding see Sunder-Hollian.

So in short: some good pieces, among a lot of dross. Stave is easily the best developed non core character in the Chronicles (although as a result he really isn't "Haruchai" anymore - not that that's a bad thing.

Honestly my feeling is SRD needs a good editor. He always does, since he tends to overwrite. And the Last Chronicles, while its got some awesome stuff (I really LIKED FR), needs a brutal mean inconsiderate editor beating SRD to cutting stuff. This book needed about 100 pages shaved from it.

By clarification you want a point by point response?
Ok.

1. Strongest in what way?

2. There may be a good reason for the lack of characterization which will become clear in the 4th book.

3. Nothing wrong with stating subjective preferences, but they can't very well be debated.

4. You don't know if SHE will or will not serve a valid purpose in the 4th book.

5. I see nothing particularly long-winded about the debate over Jeremiah/croyel.

6. There is no evidence that Linden whines.

7. Yes, Covenant was cool, and he will get even cooler in the 4th book. Not just because there is no sun. It's just that the build-up and the wait are finally coming around to a huge pay-off. And in only three years or less.

8. By "Anand" I take it you mean "Liand."

9. You like things, you don't like things. But what about the plot-structure? Was it logically sound?

10. The Ardent may reappear, who knows until the 4th book? That's my entire point.

11. Liking is always nice.

12. Pahni is just being a typical teenager.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

don't understand your comment at all? You're refrerring to point #2?
Please clarify.

BTW, it's worth listing I think roughly my order of preferred books from best liked to least liked just to show my biases:

In the first two chronicles

1. The Wounded Land (What can I say I really liked it)
2. The Power That Preserves (Mhoram's stuff)
3. The Illearth War
4. White Gold Wielder (powerful ending, found the beginning too slow)
5. Lord Foul's Bane (good intro to series, a lot of whining)
6. The One Tree (dunno why people like this, it's soooo slow and Covenant is paralyzed for the middle third and I felt so betrayed at the time finding out how lame the elohim and bhraithrair (sic?) were after hearing tales of them and finding the one tree really wasnt the answer and the whole book almost could have been skipped)

Last Chronicles

1. FR (fast paced, exciting, great time stuff)
2. RE (a little slow)
3. AATE (major structural issues)

Not to be picky here, but the trip to the Isle of the One Tree was not wasted. The questors and Donaldson's readers only thought it was wasted. But Vain would not have been transformed otherwise. That's why it is essential, as I said before, to think about the book coming up and to understand that it is one story and not three stories with three endings.

[shadowbinding shoe]

You really don't know most of this until the last book is finished and the story is complete.

This sort of criticism about criticism is very flawed imo. Good sections in later books don't retroactively justify the poor earlier parts. They're just good material that appear in later books. To justify something with later material you need to prove that it contributed to the story more than it detracted with its actual presence.

For example I accept Covenant's unlikable character in LFB (and TIEW to a lesser extent) and the moral crimes such as the rape of Lena he commits because they are necessary for the story, the connected-to-it-payoff is good enough, and it was tolerable at the time because the Land gave a strong enough counterweight. Furthermore, it gave an interesting and unusual viewpoint.

The wooden character of the Giants in the last chronicles and some other issues are pretty hard to justify. Not that I necessarily agree with the particulars of mjb's criticisms.

A story is not supposed to be something you have to suffer through in order to get to a sublime ending. This "can't say anything against it until you read the ending" is almost always an ad hoc argument meant to postpone unfavorable criticism and prevent discussion. Do you read an entire series (10 books in this case) before you are allowed to form an opinion on any of it? Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Not to be picky here, but the trip to the Isle of the One Tree was not wasted. The questors and Donaldson's readers only thought it was wasted. But Vain would not have been transformed otherwise. That's why it is essential, as I said before, to think about the book coming up and to understand that it is one story and not three stories with three endings.

I liked The One Tree but for different reasons. Seeing the Giants in their natural settings on the Sea and learning more about them, visiting Bharathair and the Elohim-demesne and yes the Isle of the One Tree and its protector. I enjoyed all of those and they justify the book enough in my eyes. Not everything has to be about the end-goal. On the series' level it gave important character development to Covenant and Linden. In the end it was a stronger book in me eyes than WGW.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

You really don't know most of this until the last book is finished and the story is complete.

This sort of criticism about criticism is very flawed imo. Good sections in later books don't retroactively justify the poor earlier parts. They're just good material that appear in later books. To justify something with later material you need to prove that it contributed to the story more than it detracted with its actual presence.

For example I accept Covenant's unlikable character in LFB (and TIEW to a lesser extent) and the moral crimes such as the rape of Lena he commits because they are necessary for the story, the connected-to-it-payoff is good enough, and it was tolerable at the time because the Land gave a strong enough counterweight. Furthermore, it gave an interesting and unusual viewpoint.

The wooden character of the Giants in the last chronicles and some other issues are pretty hard to justify. Not that I necessarily agree with the particulars of mjb's criticisms.

A story is not supposed to be something you have to suffer through in order to get to a sublime ending. This "can't say anything against it until you read the ending" is almost always an ad hoc argument meant to postpone unfavorable criticism and prevent discussion. Do you read an entire series (10 books in this case) before you are allowed to form an opinion on any of it? Of course not. That's ridiculous.

That is some nice ad hoc reasoning there. Of course you can justify the rape scene, having finished that series. Of course you find it hard to justify things in the Last Chrons, because you haven't finished it yet. That's my point. And I have not prevented discussion because there is still plenty of room for speculation.

I'm just saying, on some points it is necessary to keep an open mind until the conclusion. It is hard to say exactly what points, just as I could not have known, at the end of my first reading of TOT, that Vain had actually fulfilled part of his purpose and was not just injured. I just know from that kind of experience how necessary it is with Donaldson to keep an open mind, and therefore to suspend judgment, until the end. And since we don't know what is going to happen, this opens the door to much speculation, but it unfortunately closes the door to making some judgments.

Not to be picky here, but the trip to the Isle of the One Tree was not wasted. The questors and Donaldson's readers only thought it was wasted. But Vain would not have been transformed otherwise. That's why it is essential, as I said before, to think about the book coming up and to understand that it is one story and not three stories with three endings.

I liked The One Tree but for different reasons. Seeing the Giants in their natural settings on the Sea and learning more about them, visiting Bharathair and the Elohim-demesne and yes the Isle of the One Tree and its protector. I enjoyed all of those and they justify the book enough in my eyes. Not everything has to be about the end-goal. On the series' level it gave important character development to Covenant and Linden. In the end it was a stronger book in me eyes than WGW.

WGW was more of a patchwork in some ways. But TWL is so far the most structurally unsound, according to Donaldson himself. I didn't see that problem with AATE.

[mjb]

I think you are being a little presumptuous here assuming I (or anyone else) is not keeping an open mind. We're all fans here.

Hey I like the book ok. I just felt there were flaws. I was chiming in a thread that was discussing some of them and listing some of the points I had.

To complain my opinion is subjective is just plain silly . And yes, the poor characterization of the humbled and the giants MAY be justified in the 4th book - I doubt it, but it MAY BE. But it's idle speculation on your part to assume it will be. Until it is, based on the three books we've seen, that's my opinion, and I believe it could be backed up by discussion of the text.

Honestly, it seems like you are a bit quick to defend SRD here. You enjoyed the books - fine (so did I). You don't agree with some of my points - then argue them on the basis of the three books that are HERE. Or give some solid reasoning to expect differently in the 4th book.

Personally I think it's just a bit of laziness on SRD's part - he knows we expect giants and haruchai in a TC story - he put them in. But he didn't do a very good job with them.

Re TOT - ok, I can see how some people got enjoyment out of parts of the voyage. I found it dragged as an overall narrative.

[mjb]

By clarification you want a point by point response?
Ok.

1. Strongest in what way?

Strongest in the ways cited earlier in this thread - the narrative was brisk, the story was enjoyable and interesting and developed nicely and provided some closure. Of course, your original reply wasn't relevant to that.


2. There may be a good reason for the lack of characterization which will become clear in the 4th book.

Replied in other message. Yes, there may be, though I doubt it.

3. Nothing wrong with stating subjective preferences, but they can't very well be debated.

Not everything needs to be debated, however I merely stated I felt Stave is just about the best developed nonLinden/TC character in LC. That certainly COULD be debated if you wish. You'd lose in my opinion, but we could debate it.

4. You don't know if SHE will or will not serve a valid purpose in the 4th book.

No, I don't. However I stated I found her introduction and the narrative around it to be iffish. Maybe it will be redeemed in the 4th book. But is that your answer to all criticism? That none of us should have ANY opinion until the 4th book is released? mind you, I AGREE one should not form a opinion of the work as a WHOLE until then, and one can/should be openminded enough to revise one's opinion if warranted then. However, that's not really relevant - what's relevant is what we got NOW.


5. I see nothing particularly long-winded about the debate over Jeremiah/croyel.

Well I disagree, I think we spent a LOT of pages endlessly having people debate internally/externally what to do, and then multiple "free jeremiah" attempts (3 to my count) that got a little tedious.


6. There is no evidence that Linden whines.

Uh..... yeah. Ok dude. I'm just throwing my hands up politely here. Clearly we have a different definition of whining. Because by my definition, Covenant and Linden are BOTH whiners to different degrees and different justifications during the ENTIRE CHRONICLES. (If you prefer the less loaded terms of "wracked by despair and angst", ok.) I just thought it was a bit much here. She was basically paralzed by this for much of the book, and frankly while a little of it made perfect sense (given the Worm, etc), it simply was a little boring to read after a while. We get it, you are upset, depressed, despairing about your son and your effect on others. Ok. How many times does SRD have to beat us over the head with this.

7. Yes, Covenant was cool, and he will get even cooler in the 4th book. Not just because there is no sun. It's just that the build-up and the wait are finally coming around to a huge pay-off. And in only three years or less.

Hope so. (and the just because there is no sun I don't get. Not relevant to me at least).

8. By "Anand" I take it you mean "Liand."

Yes sorry, I tend to blend those two stone towners. Thanks

9. You like things, you don't like things. But what about the plot-structure? Was it logically sound?

The structure was sound enough in a logical fashion. But it needed editing. A Lot Of Editing.

10. The Ardent may reappear, who knows until the 4th book? That's my entire point.

You have no basis whatsoever for assuming that. But fine, I'll wait.

11. Liking is always nice.

I'm glad you think so. My point is he is a likeable, interesting character who developed pretty well in this book. As opposed to some of the characters I said did not (#2)

12. Pahni is just being a typical teenager.[/quote]

Fine and I find her annoying as result. Taint no excuse.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I think you are being a little presumptuous here assuming I (or anyone else) is not keeping an open mind. We're all fans here.

Hey I like the book ok. I just felt there were flaws. I was chiming in a thread that was discussing some of them and listing some of the points I had.

To complain my opinion is subjective is just plain silly . And yes, the poor characterization of the humbled and the giants MAY be justified in the 4th book - I doubt it, but it MAY BE. But it's idle speculation on your part to assume it will be. Until it is, based on the three books we've seen, that's my opinion, and I believe it could be backed up by discussion of the text.

Honestly, it seems like you are a bit quick to defend SRD here. You enjoyed the books - fine (so did I). You don't agree with some of my points - then argue them on the basis of the three books that are HERE. Or give some solid reasoning to expect differently in the 4th book.

Personally I think it's just a bit of laziness on SRD's part - he knows we expect giants and haruchai in a TC story - he put them in. But he didn't do a very good job with them.

Re TOT - ok, I can see how some people got enjoyment out of parts of the voyage. I found it dragged as an overall narrative.

I'm not complaining, but I know someone else who is.

Speculate for just a moment here, keeping in mind how AATE was constructed. We can do this without mind-reading - for example, claiming that Donaldson put giants and haruchai in the story because the reader expects them. And we have eight previous Chrons books to take our cues from, not to mention other great Donaldson stories.

I speculate that the reason the giants are so plain compared to the 2nd Chrons giants is that we are not supposed to become attached to them. These are not to be another group like Pitchwife, Seadreamer, and the First. If Donaldson had wanted that kind of lovable giant, he would have written a different kind of story. But these - these are giants who are, in the long run, doomed to die. I base this prediction partially on their lack of personality, partially on the fact that Donaldson has already started killing off characters in droves - and partially on the great probability that the Land is not going to survive the last novel.
Now put Pitchwife, the First, and the rest of the lovable cast of giants from the 2nd Chrons in a situation where they try to fight but are hopelessly outmatched, and then watch them die - for example, imagine them being slowly and horribly eaten by the Worm, one after the other, ending with Pitchwife.
I personally would prefer to lose giants with less personality going for them.
You don't think Donaldson will do anything like this to the present giants? Let's just say that, based on previous experience with his novels, I wouldn't put it past him.

As with many other readers, I also had problems with SHE. About a month or so ago someone here put the issue into really brilliant terms. But to say that there is no need for that kind of character? Not only do we not know this yet, because there is still one book to go, but this character may tie into previous Chrons, for example, the statement at the end of WGW where Foul proclaims, "Lies would better serve the trivial yearning which you style love." It sounds to me like he knows something about the subject, and this may be part of a backstory involving SHE that we have had only hints about so far.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I see you didn't get the joke where I said Covenant would get cooler in the fourth book because there is no sun.

Also -
Definitions of "whine," in this novel's context:
snivel: talk in a tearful manner
complain whiningly
whimper: a complaint uttered in a plaintive whining way
the act of snivelling; nasal mucus; snot; to breathe heavily through the nose; to sniffle; to whine or complain, whilst crying

I haven't seen Linden doing any of that.

[SleeplessOne]

I speculate that the reason the giants are so plain compared to the 2nd Chrons giants is that we are not supposed to become attached to them. These are not to be another group like Pitchwife, Seadreamer, and the First. If Donaldson had wanted that kind of lovable giant, he would have written a different kind of story. But these - these are giants who are, in the long run, doomed to die. I base this prediction partially on their lack of personality, partially on the fact that Donaldson has already started killing off characters in droves - and partially on the great probability that the Land is not going to survive the last novel.
Now put Pitchwife, the First, and the rest of the lovable cast of giants from the 2nd Chrons in a situation where they try to fight but are hopelessly outmatched, and then watch them die - for example, imagine them being slowly and horribly eaten by the Worm, one after the other, ending with Pitchwife.
I personally would prefer to lose giants with less personality going for them.
You don't think Donaldson will do anything like this to the present giants? Let's just say that, based on previous experience with his novels, I wouldn't put it past him.

What is the reason for writing lines and lines of dialogue for Coldspray and co. to espouse, or of exploring their motivations in detail, if it's not in an attempt to develop them as characters ?
If Donaldson simply wanted to kill off a lot of characters to make his point that the Land is doomed, he wouldn't necessarily have to invest any personality in them at all, e.g. the decimation of Hile Troy's army.
Also, Donaldson has never shied away from killing off wonderful characters in the past; Baradakas, Amok, Elena, Hyrim, Foamfollower, Hamako, the list goes on and on (and then stops).
Some have died 'heroically', others tragically.
All of these deaths had added poignancy due to the emotion and personality SRD had invested into his characters.

Like yourself WOTWE, I'm very much in the 'wait and see' camp when it comes to the Last Chrons - a lot of my appreciation and wonder at the previous chronicles came from SRD's ability to take me on a journey that subverted my expectations, only to reveal more of itself upon closer inspection and re-reads.
It's hard to judge these final chronicles at this point; I do know that AATE had a handful of moments that genuinely knocked me on my arse in a way that recalled the finest moments of the earlier chronicles.

however, that doesn't blind me to the fact that, on the whole, the final chronicles have dragged, maddened, frustrated and baffled at various stages.
I didn't like FR much at all, I found the emergence of the Insequent jarring, and the journey into the past underwhelming.
Even the earthblood stuff seemed a tired re-hash instead of an inspired re-working of an older scene.
But as the story unfolded further in AATE, some of my complaints with FR faded while other doubts where placated.
For instance, I have gone from strongly disliking the weaving of the Insequent into the Land's history and fate to finding them one of the most intriguing things about this story.

I have had previous concerns regarding both the Giants and the haruchai (Stave doesn't count, I mainly speak of the Humbled) that have been shared by other Watchers; they didn't/don't appear to be very memorable or well-developed characters.
But my view has changed somewhat since finishing AATE in two ways; firstly, there have *always* been a few fairly nondescript characters in SRD's company of the Land's defenders.
Apart from the four main Giants, who we had three books to come to know and love, the rest of the dromond's crew were fairly perfunctory, SRD sketched in more details of other crew members as the tale progressed.
Similarly, it took time for the haruchai characters in the 2nd chrons to emerge, and even then it was mainly restricted to Brinn and Cail, with a nod to Hergrom.

I admit that Coldspray's posse have struggled to impact on me as a reader thus far.
I predict SRD will focus on the deeds of 2 or 3 of the Giants in TLD, Coldspray and a couple of others (whose names I only vaguely know - there's one called Onyx Stonemage, I know that much, though I couldnt say what she has achieved so far in comparison to her fellow ironhands) - there is still time for joy to be heard in their tale.

imo the Humbled are coming along nicely, after AATE I look forward to the further exploits of Branl and Clyme (Galt, our dead homey, also had some great lines in AATE).
The haruchai by their very nature have a certain uniformity and therefore are hard to distinguish by their personalities.
Obviously Bannor, Brinn and Stave are exceptions, we got to know them the most.
But other haruchai have always been about their deeds.
Hergrom, Korik, Tull, Runnik, we remember these characters for what they did rather than what they said or felt.
Branl and Clyme are beginning to achieve that stature; their conversations with Covenant and subsequent fight to preserve him against Joan, the Raver and the tsunami prove their worth and legitimacy.

I really liked them as characters in AATE, typical haruchai with a few little suprises here and there, Branl's almost idealistic, yet fanatical, philosophical discussion with TC as they ride the toward the Sunbirth Sea further enlightened me as to the haruchai way of thinking.

[Orlion]

It's been a while since I've said how much I love the Last Chronicles and Against All Things Ending I've been more satisfied with AATE that the three year wait for the final book doesn't irritate me as much....

[thewormoftheworld'send]

<snip>

I really liked them as characters in AATE, typical haruchai with a few little suprises here and there, Branl's almost idealistic, yet fanatical, philosophical discussion with TC as they ride the toward the Sunbirth Sea further enlightened me as to the haruchai way of thinking.

I snipped most of your long comment for brevity. I think the reason Donaldson brought in Giants in the first place was simply that he couldn't imagine writing a new Chrons without them, and so he thought up a way to weave them into the plot. The only people missing from it so far are the Brathair, but I hardly expect to see any of them. Another reason the new Giants are so bland in character is that they have a more serious role to play this time. I don't see any of what you call development of character in any of them, maybe a bit more character revelation, but we apparently differ in our ideas of what constitutes development. Covenant's character develops because it evolves. Linden's character develops, perhaps because it devolves: Her leg-cutting, and the reasons for it, shows that her mind is beginning to slip, while Covenant's is in a process of healing at that point.

Stave's character is obviously developing. I shouldn't have to name the reasons for that because it is so obvious. Branl and Clyme's character did not develop, they only revealed to Covenant some motives for being who they are. However, this was just a device used by Donaldson to mirror Covenant's inner quest to become more Haruchai-like, which is yet another character development. The Marrowmeld sculpture of Bannor/Covenant is eventually to become reality.