What if we hadn't killed OBL?

Archive From The 'Tank
User avatar
Worm of Despite
Lord
Posts: 9546
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:46 pm
Location: Rome, GA
Contact:

Post by Worm of Despite »

Cail wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Saddam Hussein was still the leader of a country, thus according him a different status. The proper treatment for such a person is "detain them then hold a trial".

Osama bin Laden was nothing but a gang leader, much like the marauders from The Road Warrior. The proper treatment for him is "shoot on sight".

He wasn't even a foot soldier in an established army, for whom the proper treatment is "detain then release after the conflict has ended".

Again I ask, can you please show me where this Road Warrior policy is spelled out in the Constitution or the US Code?
Can you show me the Cail policy on terrorism in the Constitution or US Code?
Cail wrote:What OBL did was a crime. By nature of the fact that he was an individual, not a nation
He wasn't just an "individual" but the head of a terrorist organization and over more than one individuals who, in his own words, declared a Muslim "holy war" against us, and this group was given safe-haven by Afghanistan, most likely various other Muslims and perhaps Pakistan and other states. It's a bit more complex than him being Joe Bloggs who commits a felony and automatically becomes a part of our judicial process.

The scale and the viciousness which he executed his attacks with were of a military nature, using covert groups (terrorist cells taking flight training), military-esque training camps, money, leaders...

It wasn't a nation-state but it wasn't a person either; somewhere in between, and it's similar to a nation, so treat it as one as we often treat underage criminals as adults depending on how heinous and premeditated the crime.
User avatar
Vraith
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 10621
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: everywhere, all the time

Post by Vraith »

Cail wrote:Answered in the other thread, though I suspect you know it's a bad question with faulty logic. He broke the laws of the US by committing a crime here. That means that US criminal law applies to him.


Everyone, and I mean everyone has human rights including the right to due process.
I've already answered this at least twice, maybe more between the 2 or 3 different threads. You are right on the basis, Hashi is wrong...our protections apply to anyone subject to our justice system, whether they're citizens or not. [A mexican national caught in San Diego isn't in our system? Bull. And same theoretical basis].
But I'm right on it, too. The killing was legal under our own system.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
User avatar
Hashi Lebwohl
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19576
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:38 pm

Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

I may be accused of many things, but using faulty logic is not one of them.

As far as I can tell, Mr. bin Laden has not set foot inside this country so I suppose he could be presumed guilty of breaking laws such as "conspiracy to commit murder" (among others). Is this sufficient to try and arrange an extradition from a foreign country with whom we have an extradition treaty? I suspect it is. Do we have such a treaty with Pakistan? I don't know.

So...does the person breaking into my house at night have human rights? So I don't have the right to defend my family by shooting this person as they finish crawling in through my window?

This will definitely be a hot topic for lawyers and ethics/philosophy professors for years to come. The rest of us, though, have probably already made up our minds about the subject.

The Tank is gone and now so am I.
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I may be accused of many things, but using faulty logic is not one of them.

As far as I can tell, Mr. bin Laden has not set foot inside this country so I suppose he could be presumed guilty of breaking laws such as "conspiracy to commit murder" (among others). Is this sufficient to try and arrange an extradition from a foreign country with whom we have an extradition treaty? I suspect it is. Do we have such a treaty with Pakistan? I don't know.

So...does the person breaking into my house at night have human rights? So I don't have the right to defend my family by shooting this person as they finish crawling in through my window?

This will definitely be a hot topic for lawyers and ethics/philosophy professors for years to come. The rest of us, though, have probably already made up our minds about the subject.

In a really unusual turn of events for you, yes, your logic is flawed. There is nothing analogous between you shooting an intruder in your home and Barack Obama sending the SEALs to kill Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Hashi Lebwohl
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19576
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:38 pm

Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

I was addressing the "violation of human rights" topic. Specifically, that the kill order violated Mr. bin Laden's human rights whereas my killing of someone breaking into my home does not even though both are instances of someone being shot

The Tank is gone and now so am I.
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I was addressing the "violation of human rights" topic. Specifically, that the kill order violated Mr. bin Laden's human rights whereas my killing of someone breaking into my home does not even though both are instances of someone being shot

You are, without question, violating an intruder's human rights by shooting them. Our laws (in some states) recognize that violation as legal, and you will face judicial scrutiny after you do so.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Hashi Lebwohl
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19576
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:38 pm

Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

That is a finer point of law I am not in a position to discuss without first looking into the applicable state laws. It is certain that one would face scrutiny in such an instance, though.

The Tank is gone and now so am I.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19636
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am

Post by Zarathustra »

Cail wrote: But notice that the Iraqis felt that it was important to try a mass murderer in the courts while y'all are arguing that we shouldn't.
I don't think we're arguing that he shouldn't have been tried in the courts. We're arguing that if he resisted "arrest" while we were trying to capture him (a necessary prerequisite for bringing him into a courtroom--you first have to get him there), then our soldiers were within their rights to kill him rather than have themselves blown up by a possible suicide vest, for instance.

Are police obligated to refrain from deadly force if a perp resists arrest--a perp who has access to machine guns and bombs?

You seem to be arguing that there are no legal circumstances whatsoever for our soldiers to use lethal force, without a formal declaration of war against a country. If that's the case, why do we have covert ops in the first place? Are they illegal by definition?

We've been killing Al Qaeda leaders by the 100s for about a decade now. Why hasn't this issue been brought up before?
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
Hashi Lebwohl
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19576
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:38 pm

Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Because this is the first time--to the best of my knowledge--that a President has issued a direct kill order against a specific individual. That alone makes the case unique.

I still maintain, though, that pirates and terrorists should be shot on sight rather than be captured and tried. They don't care about human rights or laws so why should they be accorded those luxuries?

The Tank is gone and now so am I.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19636
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am

Post by Zarathustra »

“There are targeted killing issues where the legal background is complicated,” says Brookings fellow (and New Republic contributor) Benjamin Wittes. But, as it turns out, “[t]his isn’t one of them.” One week after the September 11 attacks, Wittes explains, President George W. Bush signed Public Law 107-40, in which Congress authorized the president “to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.” No one fit this description more closely than Osama bin Laden. (By contrast, the NATO missile strike in Tripoli that allegedly killed Muammar Qaddafi’s son Seif Al Arab and three of his young grandchildren this past weekend has elicited greater controversy, because the U.N. resolution authorizing a no-fly zone over Libya, among many other differences from 107-40, did not include an authorization of force against Qaddafi or his family.)
link
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
Tjol
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1552
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:11 am

Post by Tjol »

Cail wrote:What OBL did was a crime. By nature of the fact that he was an individual, not a nation, he can't declare war against us. What he can do is violate our laws, which he did. As such, it's our obligation to bring him to justice. As far as what parts of the Constitution back this up, how about the 4th and 14th Amendments for starters?
How do the 4th and 14th ammendment apply to non-American citizens?

Unless you're playing devil's advocate? Are you asking Bush bashers to explain why it's ok for Obama to do so but not Bush?

Or do you really think the US Constitution preserves the rights of everyone on the face of the planet, rather than to US citizens alone?
Saddam was tried and convicted in an Iraqi court for crimes against Iraqis. Different thing entirely.
Would you call the Iraqi court credible? The same doubts you have of the government judging whether OBL required a military response could easily be cast upon the Iraqi court. Who knows what interest pulled what strings (no pun intended)?

Saddam was tried by a court and legal system that were fabricated out of thin air.
But notice that the Iraqis felt that it was important to try a mass murderer in the courts while y'all are arguing that we shouldn't.
Iraqis didn't feel it was important, the US did. For political reasons, not because they thought it was anymore just if a kangaroo court put on a show of Saddam's trial. Do you think Saddam had any chance of not getting hung before shouts of 'allahu ackbar' from his religious rivals? (Is this video still available on the internet, or was it only on for the day or two after he was hung?)
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud

You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
User avatar
Damelon
Lord
Posts: 8550
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:40 pm
Location: Illinois
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Damelon »

There's no evidence that this was a solely a "kill" mission. The fact that he was unarmed is irrelevant to that. That he was so couldn't be known at the time of confrontation.

However, OBL's "declaring war" on the U.S.A. doesn't mean anything either. He doesn't have the standing under international law to declare war. AQ isn't a state. It's like the Mafia declaring war on the U.S.. The Mafia are not a state, they are criminals. Same with AQ. If AQ members are apprehended they should be tried in a criminal court, or if outside the U.S. a military court that would have jurisdiction. In any case, recognizing that AQ is a legal combatant opens up a huge can of worms in many ways, not the only in regards to the treatment of inmates at Guantanamo, since what was done there would be against the rules of treatment of P.O.W.'s under the Geneva Convention, but more importantly in legitimizing AQ's method of assaults against civilians.

The strictly proper way to handle this would have to informed the Pakistanis and have them make the arrest or assist them in making it. Where he was found though made that highly problematic. Watching him 24/7 wasn't much of an option. What were they going to observe from the ground in a compound with 18 foot walls unconnected to phone or internet? I heard on NPR the day afterwards that, in interviewing the neighbors, Pakistani police at least once a week swept through the neighborhood checking i.d.'s and on occasion entering homes there. The conclusion is unescapable that someone in the military or their ISI knew that he was there, even if the fellows doing the checking, or the government itself, didn't. The best option for observing would have been by satellite, which I'm sure they've been doing since August last year.

To sum up, while what happened wasn't optimal, it wasn't illegal either.
Image
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Tjol wrote:
Cail wrote:What OBL did was a crime. By nature of the fact that he was an individual, not a nation, he can't declare war against us. What he can do is violate our laws, which he did. As such, it's our obligation to bring him to justice. As far as what parts of the Constitution back this up, how about the 4th and 14th Amendments for starters?
How do the 4th and 14th ammendment apply to non-American citizens?

Unless you're playing devil's advocate? Are you asking Bush bashers to explain why it's ok for Obama to do so but not Bush?

Or do you really think the US Constitution preserves the rights of everyone on the face of the planet, rather than to US citizens alone?
Is it your position that non-Americans don't have rights? Is it your position that an illegal alien isn't entitled to 4th and 14th Amendment protections?

Every human being on the planet is entitled to basic human rights, period. That includes the right to due process.
Tjol wrote:
Saddam was tried and convicted in an Iraqi court for crimes against Iraqis. Different thing entirely.
Would you call the Iraqi court credible? The same doubts you have of the government judging whether OBL required a military response could easily be cast upon the Iraqi court. Who knows what interest pulled what strings (no pun intended)?

Saddam was tried by a court and legal system that were fabricated out of thin air.
Not our problem though, is it? Saddam committed crimes against Iraqis, ergo he was tried by Iraqis in an Iraqi court. Whether or not it was legitimate isn't our issue.

Surely you believe in the legitimacy of the US courts?
Tjol wrote:
But notice that the Iraqis felt that it was important to try a mass murderer in the courts while y'all are arguing that we shouldn't.
Iraqis didn't feel it was important, the US did. For political reasons, not because they thought it was anymore just if a kangaroo court put on a show of Saddam's trial. Do you think Saddam had any chance of not getting hung before shouts of 'allahu ackbar' from his religious rivals? (Is this video still available on the internet, or was it only on for the day or two after he was hung?)
Unless you've got polling data, you're guessing.

And are you equating the legitimacy of the US courts with your perception of the legitimacy of the Iraqi courts?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Tjol
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1552
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:11 am

Post by Tjol »

Cail wrote:
Tjol wrote:
Cail wrote:What OBL did was a crime. By nature of the fact that he was an individual, not a nation, he can't declare war against us. What he can do is violate our laws, which he did. As such, it's our obligation to bring him to justice. As far as what parts of the Constitution back this up, how about the 4th and 14th Amendments for starters?
How do the 4th and 14th ammendment apply to non-American citizens?

Unless you're playing devil's advocate? Are you asking Bush bashers to explain why it's ok for Obama to do so but not Bush?

Or do you really think the US Constitution preserves the rights of everyone on the face of the planet, rather than to US citizens alone?
Is it your position that non-Americans don't have rights? Is it your position that an illegal alien isn't entitled to 4th and 14th Amendment protections?

Every human being on the planet is entitled to basic human rights, period. That includes the right to due process.
What of the governments and societies that don't provide due process for members of their society?

Yes, it is my position that the US Constitution soley apply to those who are US citizens. Citizenship matters. It spells out what version of the social contract we most prefer. OBL's most preferred set of rules and laws did not involve 'due process' as you define it.
Tjol wrote:
Saddam was tried and convicted in an Iraqi court for crimes against Iraqis. Different thing entirely.
Would you call the Iraqi court credible? The same doubts you have of the government judging whether OBL required a military response could easily be cast upon the Iraqi court. Who knows what interest pulled what strings (no pun intended)?

Saddam was tried by a court and legal system that were fabricated out of thin air.
Not our problem though, is it? Saddam committed crimes against Iraqis, ergo he was tried by Iraqis in an Iraqi court. Whether or not it was legitimate isn't our issue.

Surely you believe in the legitimacy of the US courts?
Saddam also committed crimes against the US military, did he not? The US captured Saddam and in essence extradited him... to make the closest legal equivalent I can think of. Do you think Saddam deserved better than to be extradited from a due process legal system to a not-so-due process legal system?

If it's US duty to provide due process as defined by our legal system to anyone we should come to blows with, the precedent is already set.
Tjol wrote:
But notice that the Iraqis felt that it was important to try a mass murderer in the courts while y'all are arguing that we shouldn't.
Iraqis didn't feel it was important, the US did. For political reasons, not because they thought it was anymore just if a kangaroo court put on a show of Saddam's trial. Do you think Saddam had any chance of not getting hung before shouts of 'allahu ackbar' from his religious rivals? (Is this video still available on the internet, or was it only on for the day or two after he was hung?)
Unless you've got polling data, you're guessing.

And are you equating the legitimacy of the US courts with your perception of the legitimacy of the Iraqi courts?
I'm suggesting that just because it was called a trial, it doesn't mean it was the same due process as we define it. It's very specific to a society what due process is. Do women get due process in Saudi Arabia? According to Saudi Arabian law, they do. We certianly wouldn't define it that way though, would we?

(and now, not only am I defending Obama, I'm also arguing cultural relativity... then again, this about societal definitions, jurisdictions of rights and the like, so I'm not defending the relatavism, I'm simply saying it is what it is.)
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud

You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
User avatar
finn
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 4349
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....

Post by finn »

I think Cail is right on the money here, both on the legality of the current issue but also on the (possibly) implied double standards being exercised. I also wonder how this might be (re) defined in the broader sweep of protection afforded people by the US Constitution and US Bill of Rights outside the borders of the US....I'm thinking of the word unalienable.

I think the heads and hearts of many Americans are not entirely in step right now and probably won't be for a while and that's not suprising; its a big relief for many. But i find it interesting that as a result the standards currently being applied, it has led to an implied approval of Gitmo, torture and rendition (ie illegal combatant status) by Obama despite his condemnation of it and condemned by those who gave it tacit approval when done under a Republican Administration.

Equally, the people who have championed human rights and democratic freedoms are now cheering their approval of what is in essence, an application of Sharia Law (eye for an eye).

I think when the dust settles a bit, there are question to be asked about where the moral compass points, because what comes next will be hard to plot with a compass that has an arrow with a point at each end. If Obama has broken the law beyond mere process, then OBLs status and his now implied Human Rights beyond the borders of the US, may redefine the reach of the US Constitution and BoR and its protection, beyond those borders, ie, if The US as a consequence of its own rules has to apply those rules beyond its borders.
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"

"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"

"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."

"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"

"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
User avatar
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton
Posts: 61746
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Post by Avatar »

Lord Foul wrote:
Cail wrote:I wasn't aware that the US government was going to hold themselves to the standards of a Saudi expat and a self-proclaimed terrorist. I kinda figured we'd stick with that Constitution thingy.
I think we'll stick with the Constitution and justice.
Justice? Or revenge?
Pascal wrote:Justice is subject to dispute; might is easily recognised and is not disputed. So we cannot give might to justice, because might has gainsaid justice, and has declared that it is she herself who is just. And thus being unable to make what is just strong, we have made what is strong just.
Martin Luther King Jr wrote:I will mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.
--A
User avatar
Tjol
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1552
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:11 am

Post by Tjol »

Avatar wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:
Cail wrote:I wasn't aware that the US government was going to hold themselves to the standards of a Saudi expat and a self-proclaimed terrorist. I kinda figured we'd stick with that Constitution thingy.
I think we'll stick with the Constitution and justice.
Justice? Or revenge?
Pascal wrote:Justice is subject to dispute; might is easily recognised and is not disputed. So we cannot give might to justice, because might has gainsaid justice, and has declared that it is she herself who is just. And thus being unable to make what is just strong, we have made what is strong just.
Martin Luther King Jr wrote:I will mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.
--A
Justice. Moral causality. I rejoice in the death of wicked men and the death of wicked women, regardless of whether or not they had the chance to make an enemy out of me.
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud

You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Tjol wrote:
Cail wrote:
Tjol wrote: How do the 4th and 14th ammendment apply to non-American citizens?

Unless you're playing devil's advocate? Are you asking Bush bashers to explain why it's ok for Obama to do so but not Bush?

Or do you really think the US Constitution preserves the rights of everyone on the face of the planet, rather than to US citizens alone?
Is it your position that non-Americans don't have rights? Is it your position that an illegal alien isn't entitled to 4th and 14th Amendment protections?

Every human being on the planet is entitled to basic human rights, period. That includes the right to due process.
What of the governments and societies that don't provide due process for members of their society?

Yes, it is my position that the US Constitution soley apply to those who are US citizens. Citizenship matters. It spells out what version of the social contract we most prefer. OBL's most preferred set of rules and laws did not involve 'due process' as you define it.
Well this is simple, you're emphatically, demonstrably wrong.
Tjol wrote:
Tjol wrote: Would you call the Iraqi court credible? The same doubts you have of the government judging whether OBL required a military response could easily be cast upon the Iraqi court. Who knows what interest pulled what strings (no pun intended)?

Saddam was tried by a court and legal system that were fabricated out of thin air.
Not our problem though, is it? Saddam committed crimes against Iraqis, ergo he was tried by Iraqis in an Iraqi court. Whether or not it was legitimate isn't our issue.

Surely you believe in the legitimacy of the US courts?
Saddam also committed crimes against the US military, did he not? The US captured Saddam and in essence extradited him... to make the closest legal equivalent I can think of. Do you think Saddam deserved better than to be extradited from a due process legal system to a not-so-due process legal system?

If it's US duty to provide due process as defined by our legal system to anyone we should come to blows with, the precedent is already set.
Saddam committed crimes against US soldiers? Seriously? This would be after we invaded his country on a whim, right? If that's all you've got.....

We had no standing to try Saddam. It would have been nice if he'd been tried by the UN, but that was never going to happen.
Tjol wrote:
Tjol wrote: Iraqis didn't feel it was important, the US did. For political reasons, not because they thought it was anymore just if a kangaroo court put on a show of Saddam's trial. Do you think Saddam had any chance of not getting hung before shouts of 'allahu ackbar' from his religious rivals? (Is this video still available on the internet, or was it only on for the day or two after he was hung?)
Unless you've got polling data, you're guessing.

And are you equating the legitimacy of the US courts with your perception of the legitimacy of the Iraqi courts?
I'm suggesting that just because it was called a trial, it doesn't mean it was the same due process as we define it. It's very specific to a society what due process is. Do women get due process in Saudi Arabia? According to Saudi Arabian law, they do. We certianly wouldn't define it that way though, would we?

(and now, not only am I defending Obama, I'm also arguing cultural relativity... then again, this about societal definitions, jurisdictions of rights and the like, so I'm not defending the relatavism, I'm simply saying it is what it is.)
I'll say it again, OBL committed crimes against this country. By our laws, and by international law, he needs to stand trial for his crimes.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry
Posts: 3155
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:16 pm
Location: Guildford, UK
Has thanked: 1 time

Post by TheFallen »

If looked at purely rationally - and I freely acknowledge how hard this is to do, given the despicability of OBL - how can there be any argument about the illegality of the action taken?

To sum up some of the points made earlier in this and the two other concurrent threads...

1. The US was not at war with Al-Qa'eda or OBL. You cannot go to war against an ideology or an organisation, any more than you can against an individual. The much trotted out phrase "the war on terror" is meaningless in terms of international law. Therefore, OBL was not in any way a victim of war... that's self-evident.

2. All these emotive claims that OBL was "a rabid dog" or had, via his perpetration of atrocities, ceded his right to fair legal process or become "less than human" are nothing more than emotive hot air and stand up to no rational scrutiny. I know next to nothing about the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights, but denying OBL his rights under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (part of the United Nations International Bill of Human Rights, duly signed and ratified by the US and most of the world) is a clear breach.
Wikipedia wrote:Rights of the accused and Right to a fair trial.

Article 14 recognizes and protects a right to justice and a fair trial. Article 14.1 establishes the ground rules: everyone must be equal before the courts, and any hearing must take place in open court before a competent, independent and impartial tribunal, with any judgment or ruling made public. Closed hearings are only permitted for reasons of privacy, justice, or national security, and judgments may only be suppressed in divorce cases or to protect the interests of children. These obligations apply to both criminal and civil hearings, and to all courts and tribunals.

The rest of the article imposes specific and detailed obligations around the process of criminal trials in order to protect the rights of the accused and the right to a fair trial. It establishes the Presumption of innocence and forbids double jeopardy. It requires that those convicted of a crime be allowed to appeal to a higher tribunal, and requires victims of a Miscarriage of justice to be compensated. It establishes rights to a speedy trial, to counsel, against self-incrimination, and for the accused to be present and call and examine witnesses.

Article 15 prohibits prosecutions under Ex post facto law and the imposition of retrospective criminal penalties, and requires the imposition of the lesser penalty where criminal sentences have changed between the offence and conviction.

Article 16 requires states to recognize everyone as a person before the law.
From what Cail's been posting, I suspect that the action taken against OBL contravenes the US constitution as well, but I'll leave that discussion to those who know what they're talking about and who can quote chapter and verse.

3. The US took a unilateral decision to make an unannounced and thus unpermitted incursion into the territory of another recognised sovereign state. Forget that some of the Pakistani governmental hierarchy must have known where OBL was and were therefore at least passively colluding in his harbouring... that's an irrelevance. On this basis alone, the US contravened international law... that again is self-evident.

The least weak arguments I've read over the three threads to counter points 1 and 2 above are:-

A. The defence of the realm argument, but that doesn't sanction kill orders. In fact, the "live by the sword, die by the sword" attempted justification with the bitterest irony smacks of Sharia law, as others have mentioned.

B. The "killed while resisting arrest" argument, but it's turned out that OBL was unarmed. Leaving this aside, the incursion into Pakistan was clearly illegal in itself and thus makes the arrest attempt equally illegal.

Surely this is a situation where those attempting to justify the POTUS's kill order - or sanctioning of the action, if you'd rather - are solely arguing from the irrational point of view of natural (i.e. emotive) justice as compared to rational (i.e. dispassionate) justice that depends on legally enshrined process.

Allowing the power of life and death to reside unilaterally in the hands of one individual without his requiring any mandate is a massively dangerous precedent, as several have commented - it's medieval in nature. Moreover, it tarnishes the much-trumpeted fairness and democratic process of the West that (allegedly) maintains the rights of the individual above all else - we're meant to be better than this.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them

"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19636
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am

Post by Zarathustra »

TheFallen wrote: 1. The US was not at war with Al-Qa'eda or OBL.
Sure we were. Congress authorized military action against them. That's war.
TheFallen wrote: You cannot go to war against an ideology or an organisation, any more than you can against an individual.
Cail wouldn't answer this question, so maybe I can get you to answer it: where does it say that in the Constitution?
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
Locked

Return to “Coercri”