Fist & rus

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Linna Heartbooger
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

Fist and Faith wrote:There's a very big difference between being hostile toward rus, and refusing to believe what he believes.

There's also a big difference between going to a park and joining a kickball game, and telling the other players that they are not playing by the right rules every time there's a play. If you want to play by your rules, you need to get a game going on a playground that only allows those rules.
I'm not sure how this is a response to _my_ words to rus.

I could make lots of observations about the dynamic between you and rus; I could make lots of comments on the dynamics are going on in this very thread-- but who wants to hear that?
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Post by Fist and Faith »

It was a response to this:
Linna Heartlistener wrote:When we put so much of our ideas out there to a hostile audience, we will often feel like someone else has ignorantly trampled something precious.
The Close is not a hostile audience. This can be seen in the past and still today, with the lack of hostility toward threads dedicated to beliefs of specific religions (like the Kaballah thread), as well as posters of extreme faith (like Furls). I've rather enjoyed your posts here, and our exchanges, few though they've been so far - even though I know you are one of strong faith. The hostility toward rus, to the degree that it is hostile, is the result of him telling us we are wrong about everything (religious beliefs, understanding of our mother tongues, understanding of our own thoughts, etc) in nearly every conversation we've tried to have in the last five years.

It's also worth noting that it should not be assumed that the rest of us consider our worldviews to be less prescious than rus considers his own to be. No, I'm not accusing you of having said, or even thought, otherwise. I just think it should be assumed that all people consider their worldview to be a prescious thing.
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

aliantha wrote:That's why people keep attacking rus. He puts them on the defensive. But when other Watchers complain, he doesn't apologize; instead, he tries to justify his behavior...
Rus' way of handling conflict is incredibly inconvenient, I agree.
But when YOU are trying to get someone to really hear something that they don't want to hear... what ways of proceeding do you find most effective, ali?
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Post by aliantha »

Linna Heartlistener wrote:
aliantha wrote:That's why people keep attacking rus. He puts them on the defensive. But when other Watchers complain, he doesn't apologize; instead, he tries to justify his behavior...
Rus' way of handling conflict is incredibly inconvenient, I agree.
But when YOU are trying to get someone to really hear something that they don't want to hear... what ways of proceeding do you find most effective, ali?
I find whomping 'em upside the head usually gets their attention. :trout: ;)

But seriously, now that I've got that out of my system: I tend *not* to be confrontational IRL. I usually seek to find the common ground, the win-win, the consensus.

But y'know, I've tried to reach common ground with rus many times before. And while I've come to find we agree on certain, *very* discrete (as opposed to discreet -- there's a difference, y'all) topics -- in general, we usually don't agree. We usually can't even agree on the vocabulary. So what I do is what I do IRL, when someone isn't hearing me: I try once or twice to make my point, and then I walk away. There's no point in wasting my breath trying to reach a consensus with someone for whom the only acceptable outcome is total victory.

I acknowledge that one problem with my approach is that the guy I'm walking away from then thinks he "won," when in fact I haven't changed my mind -- I've just given up arguing with him. But I'm never going to get him to see my side anyway, so what's the point in continuing? Such a situation reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:
Ben Franklin wrote:Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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Post by rusmeister »

The problem is clear.
A person is not their beliefs.

You all think a person is their beliefs. That is why you are offended by challenges to them.

A person is not their beliefs.

My mother has changed her beliefs quite a few times in her adult life. She's been Catholic, Baptist, past-lifer, Mormon, Mennonite... I'd say here "you get the picture", but I honestly don't know what picture you get. But one thing is certain. In all of those changes, she has never changed who she is, even though she took each of those beliefs extremely seriously and made them central to her life. Her attitude toward life, her love for her children,
including the adopted one, her zest and charging out to find things to enjoy, has never changed. She has remained the same wonderful person throughout.
I am not my beliefs. I am Orthodox, but I am not the Orthodox Church. My faith has got along fine without me and will do fine long after I'm gone.

A person is not their beliefs. It is a fundamental confusion to think so. But I see how you can be upset by attacks on beliefs, something that, to me, is
par for the course and nothing to be surprised at.

Also, it's sad how everybody heard you accuse me of (personally) attacking Furl's and jumped on the bandwagon of your (mistaken) anger. I deny ever having personally attacking her; it. Is. Not. True. Not that I'll hold my breath waiting for anyone to apologize to me for the error.

The comment on the pig could be taken both ways, but I'll take the thought and leave out the pig. Insult is something I have strenuously avoided, but if people are insulted because of the suggestion that their beliefs might not be right, then I no longer know what the word means. I guess it means whatever you want it to. My apologies for failures of communication on my part.
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Post by [Syl] »

Has turned kinda sticky, hasn't it? I don't know what the deal with Furls and Rus is all about. She and I hadn't talked much in the couple years before she passed, maybe once where I said something she took as me saying she had no right to her opinion since she hadn't been here as long as I had (Something along the lines of, 'I've been here for a while. I know how these things work.' Not my intent, and it mortified me a bit.

But she was always kind to me until the end, and I was touched that she mentioned me. If something regrettable was said, I'm pretty sure Furls would forgive you at the drop of the hat. She was special that way. I'd imagine she'd say (is saying?) not to give Rus a hard time on her account.
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Post by Avatar »

Thank you Syl. My thoughts exactly.

God damn Rus. Are you deliberately trying to get yourself banned? It's been a long time since I've seen that sort of outcry, public and private, calling for a banning.

All you're doing is making people angrier.

But I don't think it would be right to ban you for that. (Please note that there are two more admins, so I might get over-ruled.)

I do suggest that you never mention Furls again. Even to reply to this post. (Her memory is pretty much sacred to the Watch. (And I can easily imagine her appalled laughter at the fact. :lol: )

So, at the moment, and acting purely unilaterally, in the full and certain understanding that others may disagree, perhaps strongly, I'm going to offer you a compromise.

Clearly you're unwilling or incapable of following the advice you've received about interacting with your fellow members. But never let it be said that we're not willing to give people another chance.

So here's my suggestion: You can post anything you like, say anything you want. But only in this thread. Only this thread. Or any thread that you personally create. (If you create too many, we'll just merge them into this one.)

Everybody else has the absolute choice of whether or not they want to engage with you. And if they do, they do so at their own risk. No complaints. You can quote bits of other threads to reply to them, you can tell people they're wrong or ignorant, whatever you want.

If you post elsewhere, we'll delete them. And we'll see how it goes. If your posting or style improves, the restriction might be lifted. This is a temporary solution, because we (I) don't think a ban is the best answer, even if it is the simplest.

If you don't think its an acceptable compromise, you can opt for a ban instead. Up to you.

Agreed?

--A
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Post by Linna Heartbooger »

rusmeister wrote:The problem is clear.
A person is not their beliefs.
A problem is clear.
You've just named a problem.

Even though you've uncovered a pretty major intellectual assumption, that doesn't mean you have discovered the problem that is most important for *YOU* to deal with in this situation.

syl- thanks for that post.
ali- thanks for your willingness to speak frankly about something so personal.
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor

"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
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Post by rusmeister »

Naturally no one - with the possible exception of Furl's Daughter - remembers that I offered the private opinion that people like Furl's are saints, even if I can't formally make such a statement.
All they hear is a mistaken allegation from Ali and there is a public outcry.
I, too, honor Tracie's memory and she is on my permanent prayer list and will remain so regardless of what you understand or do here. So chew on that before y'all get upset.

You don't need to ban me.

Goodbye.

I can be reached at my user name at yahoo for people who want to offer other than heckling or complaining or misdirected outrage.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

This thread ought to be an embarrassment to the whole community here. The amount of hostility is pretty incredible; and it's not come from anything specific, but built up over the last few years as it's become common and acceptable here to tear down rus' comments both publicly and in private.

Yes, rusmeister's approach to discussions, and his style of arguments, are not ideal. He also happens to hold to a pretty uncompromising belief system, one which he's remained consistent on and grounded much of his responses quite honestly in. (Fist's example on the last page of how rus' replied to the Depression thread - given his beliefs, I do not believe there is any other reply rus could have given.)

I can understand people being tired of the arguments with someone whose position never changes, even when the flaws in some of their arguments are pointed out by many. But creating a ghetto for him within this thread because you're sick of dealing with him is far from a reasonable response, and equally I don't believe someone should be banned for an arguing technique and belief system that only offends incidentally, not deliberately.
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Post by Cail »

rusmeister wrote:The problem is clear.
A person is not their beliefs.

You all think a person is their beliefs. That is why you are offended by challenges to them.

A person is not their beliefs.

My mother has changed her beliefs quite a few times in her adult life. She's been Catholic, Baptist, past-lifer, Mormon, Mennonite... I'd say here "you get the picture", but I honestly don't know what picture you get. But one thing is certain. In all of those changes, she has never changed who she is, even though she took each of those beliefs extremely seriously and made them central to her life. Her attitude toward life, her love for her children,
including the adopted one, her zest and charging out to find things to enjoy, has never changed. She has remained the same wonderful person throughout.
I am not my beliefs. I am Orthodox, but I am not the Orthodox Church. My faith has got along fine without me and will do fine long after I'm gone.

A person is not their beliefs. It is a fundamental confusion to think so. But I see how you can be upset by attacks on beliefs, something that, to me, is
par for the course and nothing to be surprised at.

Also, it's sad how everybody heard you accuse me of (personally) attacking Furl's and jumped on the bandwagon of your (mistaken) anger. I deny ever having personally attacking her; it. Is. Not. True. Not that I'll hold my breath waiting for anyone to apologize to me for the error.

The comment on the pig could be taken both ways, but I'll take the thought and leave out the pig. Insult is something I have strenuously avoided, but if people are insulted because of the suggestion that their beliefs might not be right, then I no longer know what the word means. I guess it means whatever you want it to. My apologies for failures of communication on my part.
I'm struck by the contrast.....
rusmeister wrote:The key is you say "has to be", implying a 100% probability of necessity. What about a 98% probability? If practically everybody throughout history has agreed upon the morality of an issue, then the odds are overwhelmingly against the lone dissident being right.
Rus, your worldview is simply wrong. You're in a tiny, tiny minority. Your views differ from the vast majority of Christians. You are the outlier, not us.

Take your hate somewhere else. It's not wanted here, and is sure isn't Christian.
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Post by Khazduk »

I've only been lurking this part of the forum and never posted here before - for a reason which will now become obivous. I sincerely don't want to insult anyone, and if it comes out that way I offer my apologies, whatever they may be worth in that instance.

But. You can't mix religion and logic. They are imcompatible and mutally exclusive. And from where I stand, that's the whole point and actually what gives religion its greatest worth for those who choose to participate in any kind of belief system. To explain things we can't explain.

But my choosing to believe that the earth is flat because it makes me feel safer does not compute with someone else's belief that it is tetraoid. Nor does it with a cosmonaut's view from the ISS.

And so, debating religion with someone who has already subscribed to another system of belief could never be anything but a disaster waiting to happen (unless you do it from a purely analytical perspective - psychological, historical, psychosocial, etological etc.) Because belief is personal and subjective while logic is (supposed to be) distanced and objective.

While risking to fuel other flames, I can't stop myself from saying: any and all organised religion is blatantly about power and control. It's weird that a lot of the people who praise the US as the only speck of land in the world that knows anything about freedom (I'm NOT pointing fingers at anyone here on this forum, but to large parts of the establishment - my views being skewed or not), willingly chooses to abdicate that freedom so freely. Even in the name of freedom!?

Could it be that they are actually aiming to abdicate the freedom of others? Nah, that'd just be... evil? (Hmm, better stay away from words that may carry any religious connotations. I'll settle for self-serving.) Or is it that basic human need for safety, someone to look after us? Denouncing worldy authorities may create a greater need for otherwordly ones?

I entered on my own risk; whoever read this far did likewise. :)

edit: spleling
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Murrin wrote:This thread ought to be an embarrassment to the whole community here. The amount of hostility is pretty incredible; and it's not come from anything specific, but built up over the last few years as it's become common and acceptable here to tear down rus' comments both publicly and in private.
I was just about to raise Hell (or Gehenna, anyway) about this. I started the thread as a way to confront - yes, make that strongly confront - rus about gaping holes in his beliefs, because of the particular way he has been insulting me about mine. And this thread would keep him and me from ruining every other thread as we went at it.

It was not really intended to be used by others for the same purpose with rus, but Orlion obviously thought that was ok, and he went about it in the spirit I intended, so no problem. It was certaintly not particularly intended to be a gang-up-on-rus thread. Hey, nobody's been more insulted and frustrated by rus than me, so I know what all are feeling. And I know things can get out of hand pretty quickly. But everybody needs to knock it off.

And now somebody changed the subject of the thread? No.
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Post by dANdeLION »

I agree that this thread has become ugly. That's the problem when you have a cancer; if it's not dealt with promptly, it spreads and spreads.
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Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


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Post by aliantha »

I apologize for whatever role I've played in how this is turning out.

I'd much rather have people stay and play nice. :(
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Post by Cail »

dANdeLION wrote:I agree that this thread has become ugly. That's the problem when you have a cancer; if it's not dealt with promptly, it spreads and spreads.
This is years worth of frustration from a bunch of people. I don't think it's ugly, I think it's simply people finally venting. And if it means that we never hear from Rus again, it's probably worth it.

No one really mourns the loss of Zeph; Rus is/was far more insulting than Zeph ever was.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Nobody in the history of the world was ever more insulting than Zeph.

Anyway, we're done now, everybody. rus HAS earned at least a good deal of what he's gotten. But we've given it to him sufficiently. And the close isn't going to be the place it's now becoming. I'm going to try to lock this thread. But not sure I can with this PSP. If it's not locked, I'd appreciate an admin's help. If it doesn't happen, I'll just delete any posts made after this one when I get home.

Everybody be good! :D
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Post by Avatar »

*shrug* I was looking for a way in which Rus could continue participating, with the people who wanted to engage with him, without it spoiling threads for anybody else. Which it was doing.

(Nah nah nah, I can post in locked threads.)

--A
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Post by Fist and Faith »

And I can delete your posts, punk.

:mrgreen:

Yeah, that was obviously my intention with this thread. But it's no longer what the thread is being used for, and what it IS being used for is not going to continue. rus can start a similar thread if he wants, and I'll make sure it stays that way.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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