Masters and their mirrors

[Lady Genni]

I thought I'd open up a topic where we could explore the connection between the Masters and their mirrors.

Geraden states that the ability to shape a mirror comes from talent and skill. The skill can be learned but the talent must be inborn. He also talks about how a master can always tell which mirror is his by touch. A master can only use his own mirror. So there must be some sort of deep personal connection.

How is the image connected to the master? Or is just the mirror connected to the master and the image is independant of both? Is the mirror a doorway then? Is it just a matter of chance what the image is? Then how is an augery done? Do they by chance creat a mirror showing a place then decide to cast the augery?

Earmis's and Gilburs's mirrors seem to be particularly destructive in Mordant. Although the creatures in their own world may not be harmfull. Do Earmis's personal feelings about Mordant lead to him finding these things? Or is it like the tool that is subject to it's use... "Mirrors don't kill people, Masters kill people?"

Also, copying a mirror is possible...Geraden copies Gilbur's mirror of the Champion. If the creation of a mirror is the result of a marriage of talent and skill of a particular master they how is it then duplicated by another?

[danlo]

Hey that's what my Congery topic is all about!

[Lady Genni]

I'm sorry. I thought it was more about the structure of the Congery and what King Joyse intended it for. I saw your topic as being more general...I was wondering mostly about the connection between master and mirror. Not so much about the Congery as a whole.

For instance...because of his basically twisted mind, was Gilbur able to craft more destructive mirrors? Or was he just useing them in a more destructive manner?

Didn't mean to infringe!

[DirectorDios]

I must admit, this topic is intriguing albeit somewhat confusing...it's like asking if you could go back in time and kill your father, would you still be born? If not, how did you go back in time in the first place to kill your father - That said, it seems to me, off the top of my head, that the image in the mirror was a conglomaration of several factors, but based on my memory of the actual text, it seems to at least allude to the fact that each mirror had a "recipe" if you will. So much sand, so much ash etc. as if the amounts used would alter the final mirror and subsequently it's image. --- obviously this is a quick, poorly thought out theory which you are all welcome to poke holes in at will.

[danlo]

I take back what I said b4 LG, no need 2 b sorry! Actually this topic DOES need 2 b studied in and of itself. My Congery topic was intended 2 go in this direction, but u can never tell the strange twists and turns that any topic can take...alas!

However that topic DID pose questions about Augeries, Arch Imagers and Adepts. We need 2 go back 2 the original casting and xplanation of the Augery. We also have 2 caution ourselves about such folk as Geraden and Terisa--as they had innate abilities. Perhaps it would be better, insofar as how much of the Master's personality goes in2 the crafting of a mirror, 2 concentrate on normal Imagers such as Quillion, Barsonage, Eremis, Gilbur, etc... Havelock and Vagel could b included, but I believe Arch-Imager's talents r a bit more complex than even an Adept's.

Being able 2 copy and translate though other's mirrors might be a whole different cant...

[Lady Genni]

So then, lets stick with normal Imagers and their mirrors.

Then what we have is a person with talent and skill. A recipe (?) for say your basic mirror and a result which can be a mirror with an image of ??? anything.

It seems odd to me that something like subtle variances in sand/ash/tinct etc would affect "where" the mirror showed. Ok, if you are using a recipe..say like baking a cake...you can change the color, the texture, and the flavor but it's still a cake. So what would really determine the image? Maybe a combination of the recipe and talent?

OK - I know I'm not supposed to use this example, but Geraden comes to mind. His mirror went to places that it didn't show...everyone said that this was "Geraden's Talent." Wouldn't that mean there is a connection between the image and the master?

[DirectorDios]

I can see already that this topic is going to have alot of circular logic and we will have a fun journey but won't end up in our intended destination!
That said: I agree with LG with regard to the mirrors image being direcly relevent to the Master's talent who made the mirror - which takes me back to a statement in my previous post that it is a conglomeration of all the elements of the mirror and the master who wields it. HOW the masters select or determine what their image will show never gets covered in the text of the books (to the best of my memory) but I'm of the opinion that they do not have any specific control over the final image but they may have some minor ability to determine some of the image aspects....otherwise, why would the mirror have to be adjustable? Remember when one of the masters shifted the view of the mirror to show a larger or different angled view of the mirror's image? If they knew what the image was going to show before it was completed, why not just show exactly the image, angle and view they would need? - NOW, conversely, I seem to recall that Gereden and the other Apts where responsible for making the Masters mirrors...is that not correct? Gereden was always ignoring his duties as an Apt, one of which, as I recall was making mirrors. So if that is the case, the APTS are making the mirrors that the Masters will eventually use. Hmmmm...am I crazy?

[Lady Genni]

You know it never occured to me to connect the ability to adjust the mirror to the talent of the Imager. It seems to me that the mirrors had a certain "range" once the central image was made...how that fits in with the Imager's tallent is a good question.

I remember the Apt's duties had to do with keeping the fires hot, cleaning, and assisting the Imagers in making mirrors. I originally thought that only the Imagers make the mirrors but they let Geraden make one and he was still an Apt, but again that was a special circumstance.

Good points Director Dios.

[Merlanthe]

I think when it comes to Imagers belief in their ability to do something is what allows them to do it.

The idea that only the imager who created a mirror can use that mirror or that the mirror will only show the one image and cannot be changed are ones that are repeatedly reinforced in the mind of the apts during their training and even the masters during their continued debates over the uses and limitations of imagery. They believe and accept these things as basic unchanging rules of imagery and therefore do not question them or even attempt to disprove them.

With Terisa up til the march to Esmerel what she does with mirrors is more acting on instinct or done under life threatening situations where her adreneline level is probably through the roof and she has no time to properly stop and think about what she is doing. Its only when they come to resupply during the march to Esmerel that she is afforded the opportunity to conciously practise her talent in a calm non-threatening environment. She has never been in such a situation before and her uncertainty leads to her failure. It is only after she puts her mind at ease with the nonsense chanting, distracting her mind from over-thinking what it is doing, that she succeeeds and once she sees that her talent does work she has no problem changing the image.
The same applies to Geraden he unconsiously and instinctually changes where a mirror will go without realising what he is doing but it is only once he has seen that it is possible to change the image in a mirror, and Terisa has told him it is possible for him as well, that he is conciously able to apply his talent.

Imho the explanation that Terisa needs to assert her control over a mirror before being able to use it is just a quick explanation provided by people who are too busy to properly stop and think about the matter. Sorry i realise that wer not meant to bring Terisa and Geraden into the discussion but they back up mho that belief in their ability is what allows imagers to practise that ability.

Also i think that when considering this topic you have to keep in mind that although imagers and their ability with mirrors have been around for some time its only recently, within living memory, that the congery, a gathering of both talent and information pertaining to imagery and a place where those who show talent may come and learn the craft, was formed. It wasnt so long ago that Imagers were feared and persecuted, forced to either hide away and conduct their research in solitude or forced to practise their talents in service of Alend or Cadwal.

What is known and understood about imagery and how it works comes from the Masters the majority of whom probably gained their knowledge of imagery by trial and error unless they were lucky enough to find a more experienced imager willing to teach them. Most have been too busy trying to survive to be able to conduct much research into how imagery works. Even know when the congery has been around for a couple decades the various masters have trouble trusting one another or working together.

It is imho entirely believable that a lot of knowledge pertaining to imagery and how it works has been lost or has yet to be discovered and that what is known about imagery is merely the most basic rules but not the only rules. The Congery may be masters of imagery but up til the events depicted in the novel they have had little motivation to conduct any meaningful research into how imagery works. They cling to what they already know about imagery instead of researching what they dont know. Even at the end of the novel there are gaps of knowledge in how imagery works especially pertaining to Geraden and Terisa. Gaps that would no doubt be filled by the research conducted by the congery in the decades, maybe even centuries, following the epilogue.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Hi Merlanthe. Great first post! Welcome aboard.

I see what you're say about the ability to use other mirrors is there for all but it's just not been properly explored or dismissed because of preconceived notions. ( I hope that's what you were saying)

I don't like that though. It takes away from the specialness of being an Adept. And there's nothing to support it in the text of the story I believe.

I need to reread the books again. It's been a while and I love them.

[Merlanthe]

Yes that is what i was trying to say though it kinda devolved into a rambling sorry

I dont think it would take away from the specialness of being an adept though. An adept is someone who can use any mirror not just one that they created. Presumably thats one of the few basic unchanging rules of imagery that has been thoroughly researched and confirmed beyond a doubt and probably the congerys apts are tested for this ability during their training whilst they are still learning about imagery and have yet to be fully affected by preconcieved ideas. Otherwise how would the members of the congery know that they are mere masters rather than adepts? Possibly they didnt test Geraden cause he is so clumsy they feared he would break their precious mirrors

With Terisa she is able to discover new talents and abilities cause she is not bound by preconcieved notions of how imagery should work and because Geraden is so trusting and ready to believe in Terisa he is also able to discover new talents and abilities. BUT Terisa is an arch imager and Geraden is an adept so their talents are different from the norm anyhow and what the congery knows regarding the abilities of adepts/archimagers is mostly conjecture as none of them possess that level of talent and their only subjects of study are Vagel who is MIA and Havelock who is mad. Sure Havelock wasnt always mad but by the time the congery had been formed and was in a position to study his abilities he was a raving lunatic.

I realise that in my long ramble i suggested being able to use others mirrors and change the image within mirrors was a matter of belief in ones ability but i was more referring to the latter with regard to ordinary imagers. Maybe the reason only Geraden and Terisa can shift the images shown in mirrors is because the congery, believing it to be impossible has never attempted to do so before now. Or maybe they did but it didnt work because they had never done it before and believed it was doomed to failure. And once they learn that Terisa and Geraden are able to do so they seem to assume that shifting images must be part of an adept/archimagers power rather than something any imager could do if they put their mind to it.

Its equally possible that there were imagers in the past who could shift the images in mirrors, or create the oxidate stuff that allows simultaneous translation or maybe that there were more Adepts and Arch imagers running round but because the congery did not yet exist, Mordant was for a very long time a constant war zone between Alend and Cadwal, and Imagers were feared, distrusted and hunted down by angry mobs the knowledge was lost and the adepts/archimagers forgotten.

And here i go rambling again obviously i've had way too much time to think about this

[ItisWritten]

I'll probably ramble too, but later. For now, I just want to add that while these are mirrors, they are actually portals. I know that's rather obvious to us, but it narrows the scope of what imagers do--they find other worlds.

So, a little bit of this tincture, that grain and, voila, a nightmare world of hideous creatures. Add some new ingredient and you have the same world from another perspective. Now, that's a bit more SF than fantasy, but it doesn't change the story. I think, when we're talking about one imager copying another's work, all we're talking about is a recipe; talent is already assumed. But the real talent among imagers (excluding the exceptional talents) is finding useful images. That (on top of the augery) was why Geraden was permitted to copy the image of the champion.

Oh. That was a bit of ramble after all.

[Avatar]

We all ramble on randomly here. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Welcome to the Watch Merlanthe.

--A