Wall Street

[Farsailer]

Something that's often lost here is that living in poverty without a safety net is very dang hard, those who get out of that almost invariably did so solely through *hard* work. I mean *hard*. I've heard all the stories from my grandparents' generation around this. Very few people actually want to put in that level of effort, never did throughout history, most people did it because they had to, their very survival was at stake. Today is no different. Only difference is the entitlement available to allow people from having to face that difficulty.

So to take this to a personal level - and I'm not the one grasping for more entitlements on Wall Street, btw, I'm volunteering at a law firm to make myself a part of the current working system as much as possible - are you recommending I start my own farm or what? Other than that, I'm not sure what kind of hard work I can do to get an income and be anything other than a sponge off my parents. I don't have the ability to compete with established businesses because I don't know how to find clients, have little in the way of skills, and don't have capital. I think the idea that one can just "work hard" in an existing system and pull oneself out of the hole is flawed, because you need money from the existing system to pull oneself out and, in a recession/depression, the idea that you're going to be able to coax money out on a new business venture is not very tenable.

Not everyone can pull themselves out of poverty. Life ain't fair that way. Access to capital is not that necessary, in any case, it's insufficient. It's also about attitude and the brains plus hard work to connect the the pieces one runs across and to be open minded to opportunities as they arise. Branch Rickey said "Luck is the residue when opportunity meets preparation." He was more right than he knew. If you read any rags to riches story, that's how they made it: they prepared themselves, when they saw opportunity they jumped on it. I don't see any other way.

And in terms of starting my own farm, I doubt there's land left for me to do so in NJ, but I could be wrong. Maybe in the south.

Also try the Midwest. Farms and ranches are very cheap compared to NJ or California. Was just talking to a guy last night who's thinking of retiring to a ranch in OK, for instance. Just throwing that out there.

As for the video, I'm not sure I feel that the needs of the excess population that can't find work would be found through capitalism, but I'm watching more to see what he has to say.

Just as a wtf, I'm pretty sure government did not create slavery, I'm pretty sure slavery predates the existence of government as we understand government as separate from a body of people being governed today. Also, per his comments on WB, WB claimed to have given a majority of his shares in Berkshire Hathaway to charity organization(s?), hopefully that was not a blatant lie and if it was not then he is not the majority shareholder of Berkshire Hathaway.

Also, the guy is a fool for saying FDR "caused" the great depression IM humble O, saying he extended it is one thing but it was already underway before he got into office. Unless you really want to argue numbers, in which case we don't have a standardizing definition for what a depression is AFAIK.

FDR didn't cause the Great Depression. Neither did Hoover. But they both sure poured gasoline on it. So much gasoline that we still debate whether they "started" it. No they didn't, the conditions were set in place through the 20's, but these two extended the length and depth of the Depression through their direct efforts.

[Cail]

Two men I have a ton of respect for discussing the issues.

[dmc-4359]

So to take this to a personal level - and I'm not the one grasping for more entitlements on Wall Street, btw, I'm volunteering at a law firm to make myself a part of the current working system as much as possible - are you recommending I start my own farm or what? Other than that, I'm not sure what kind of hard work I can do to get an income and be anything other than a sponge off my parents. I don't have the ability to compete with established businesses because I don't know how to find clients, have little in the way of skills, and don't have capital. I think the idea that one can just "work hard" in an existing system and pull oneself out of the hole is flawed, because you need money from the existing system to pull oneself out and, in a recession/depression, the idea that you're going to be able to coax money out on a new business venture is not very tenable.

Just wanted to touch on this detail for a moment. I would argue that most businesses need someone who can operate a broom. This is not a particularly hard skill to master. I have met people who can manage a broom effectively who were unable to read. If you were so inclined to master this skill at a body shop, you'll be making minimum wage for about a year while you are trained to do some other task like wet sanding body work or removing panels to be replaced. As you prove your abilities for these tasks, you will be moved on to other tasks that bring more responsibility and a higher wage. Unless you're lazy or unpredictable (late to work, poor work results, etc).

It is actually a very simple process and it is applicable to nearly any industry. I write software at the company where I am currently employed. When I started there some 13 years ago, my first tasks were physically wiping down the cases of old data center peripherals with Goo Gone so they could be tested and resold. Pouring googone on a rag and wiping it against the side of a plastic case is not a skill that few people can master but it is one that I used to obtain the others that I presently have.

I would not consider working for free under any circumstances other than a Co-Op type setup where you are receiving course credit in lieu of an actual wage. If you're giving your time away to a potential employer they will value your time exactly as much as you do.

edit-
//also, some common sense details always apply. If you are trying to get into an industry that is already saturated with entry level candidates vying for the exact same goals as you, you need to find a different industry or location to direct your focus.

[Avatar]

There is only one place a sense of entitlement can come from: people who have it too easy being taught that they deserve more.

Y'think? You think there are really people out there teaching people that they deserve more? You think parents or teachers are telling their kids "you have all this stuff, but the government should be giving you more"?

I don't know if it's as formalised as all that. I don't think it's teaching. I think it's people wanting what they see others having, but feeling unable to achieve it themselves maybe.

I don't see anybody (in your country anyway, it's a bit different in mine) going around telling people they're entitled to stuff. Maybe I'm wrong of course. Is there something specific you're talking about when you say that people are being taught to feel entitled?

--A

[dmc-4359]

I believe the education depicted below is actively coming from somewhere.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUj-m6Gq_2Y&fea ... r_embedded


Forgive the lack of embedding. I'm going to poke around on the forum instructions and see what I'm missing to make it render as expected.


//nevermind, I see that it is a forum policy to maintain video references as links.

[Farsailer]

There is only one place a sense of entitlement can come from: people who have it too easy being taught that they deserve more.

Y'think? You think there are really people out there teaching people that they deserve more? You think parents or teachers are telling their kids "you have all this stuff, but the government should be giving you more"?

I don't know if it's as formalised as all that. I don't think it's teaching. I think it's people wanting what they see others having, but feeling unable to achieve it themselves maybe.

I don't see anybody (in your country anyway, it's a bit different in mine) going around telling people they're entitled to stuff. Maybe I'm wrong of course. Is there something specific you're talking about when you say that people are being taught to feel entitled?

--A

The message isn't explicit. It's implicit. Embedded in every food stamp debit card, every unemployment check, every SS check, every welfare check, etc., etc. Them that have these checks, well now life isn't so hard so after awhile it's easy to feel entitled to these checks. Not for nothing they call it entitlement. There's a mentality that goes with it.

[sindatur]

Plus, if you have children, and you've got Section 8 housing, Welfare checks (and/or disability checks when your body is perfectly healthy) and EBT Food Cards, and they see you don't go to work, and can afford your beer and drugs, that is teaching those kids to feel entitled.

[Zarathustra]

Honestly, it's so obvious to me I didn't expect to have to come up with examples. I did mention Obama and "spread the wealth around." Since we already give assistance to the poor, and he focuses his rhetoric around helping the middle class, why isn't this example enough? Isn't telling middle class people that the rich should spread even more of their money to the rest of us creating a sense of entitlement?

Class warfare itself is based on a sense of entitlement, the idea that you're entitled to have your income increase along with the top percent. "The system isn't fair," is all about entitlement--you're not entitled to a fair life. So too is "rich not paying their fair share." Only people with a sense of entitlement would think that those who provide all the jobs, who provide the capital investment necessary for growth, who make our 401k worth more, who create the inventions that enrich our lives, and who pay the majority of the taxes, aren't contributing their "fair share." Anyone who thinks health care is a right and that we should have universal health care, has a sense of entitlement. I could go on and on. Liberalism is based around a sense of entitlement, and therefore every liberal politician advancing this ideology is preaching entitlement.

[dmc-4359]

While I'm not one to ever claim that the wealthy in our country are not paying their fair share, I do believe that a lot of these corporations have an accountability to the social, political and economic climate that allowed them to be as successful as they are. Taking Microsoft as an arbitrary example (other companies and industries apply as well), they were only able to be successful because of the licensing and copyright laws that exist within our country. Now that they have made their billions, they are building call centers in India because it is cheaper to employ people there rather than here. Had they started out in India there is no way they would have been as successful when they were simply because of the differences between here and there when they were starting out.

I don't believe these manner of corporations should just be punitively taxed after the fact, but I do think that our government should enforce some manner of tariff for US companies taking advantage of US law and political advantages while operating from over seas to avoid paying what a living wage would be in the US. It seems disingenuous to afford them the protection of our laws and political climate that keep people from robbing them blind while allowing them to skirt the wage requirements of the very same society that afforded them such success.

[Avatar]

The message isn't explicit. It's implicit.

Then it's not the same as teaching people they're entitled, is it? Yes, I can see how people can start to feel entitled to something that they get all the time, but I think it's different from going around telling people "you deserve to have this for nothing."

Anyone who thinks health care is a right and that we should have universal health care, has a sense of entitlement.

Really? Maybe they just think it's the humane or socially responsible thing to do?

Isn't telling middle class people that the rich should spread even more of their money to the rest of us creating a sense of entitlement?

Why would that automatically make somebody think that they should be the recipients? I don't need anything from anybody. I do it myself. But that doesn't mean that there aren't people who need help either.

--A

[Cail]

I don't need anything from anybody.

Except that free health care, right?

[Cybrweez]

Its not the rich that create jobs, its everyone. I don't care how rich you are, you won't make another dime if no one is there, or able, to buy whatever you're selling. Capital, labor, and demand all work together in an economy. In fact, I think the one that can be removed is capital - if their is demand for something, then labor will be found to create it. W/o some capital investment, will take a long time to grow, but you're still growing.

And I think DMC hits on what Schiff was talking about in cail's videos - crony capitalism. Its not a level playing field now, so we're not talking about capitalism. I don't want to see the rich "pay their share". I want to see a level playing field. There is a difference b/w TBTF and other banks - and we know this is not capitalism.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

Only people with a sense of entitlement would think that those who provide all the jobs, who provide the capital investment necessary for growth, who make our 401k worth more, who create the inventions that enrich our lives, and who pay the majority of the taxes, aren't contributing their "fair share."

Wow, who are these phantasmal and benevolent capitalistic deities of which you speak? That sounds just as far-flung-fantastic as something from the Bible. Close some loopholes in our ridiculous tax code, and parts of that might start to come true. And I thought small businesses provided more jobs than the mega-corps? Most small business owners are definitely not rich.

Its not the rich that create jobs, its everyone.

Thank you for pointing that out. It needed to be said.

dw

[Farsailer]

Only people with a sense of entitlement would think that those who provide all the jobs, who provide the capital investment necessary for growth, who make our 401k worth more, who create the inventions that enrich our lives, and who pay the majority of the taxes, aren't contributing their "fair share."

Wow, who are these phantasmal and benevolent capitalistic deities of which you speak? That sounds just as far-flung-fantastic as something from the Bible. Close some loopholes in our ridiculous tax code, and parts of that might start to come true. And I thought small businesses provided more jobs than the mega-corps? Most small business owners are definitely not rich.

Its not the rich that create jobs, its everyone.

Thank you for pointing that out. It needed to be said.

dw

But without capital, job creation is dang difficult. So capital formation is essential to the kind of job creation we need. Capital formation is not limited to the rich, it could be as simple as ordinary workers save up a few bucks to open their own business. The point being capital formation needs to be allowed to happen.

[Lord Mhoram]

I have another angle on an ideology so obvious and implicit throughout our society that apparently nobody in this thread feels the need to talk about it. That's the ideology that says those who most deserve the government's protection are the richest sectors of our society: The banks that have been bailed out, the corporations who have shaped policy to their benefit, the wealthiest taxpayers who have seen their tax rates decline while their incomes inch up and the income of the middle class has stagnated or fallen. But it is only when that latter category demands enfranchisement that it is sneered at as "class warfare."

[Cail]

I have another angle on an ideology so obvious and implicit throughout our society that apparently nobody in this thread feels the need to talk about it. That's the ideology that says those who most deserve the government's protection are the richest sectors of our society: The banks that have been bailed out, the corporations who have shaped policy to their benefit, the wealthiest taxpayers who have seen their tax rates decline while their incomes inch up and the income of the middle class has stagnated or fallen. But it is only when that latter category demands enfranchisement that it is sneered at as "class warfare."

Hmmmmm.....Both parties insisted that the bank bailouts were crucial. Both parties are owned by corporations and special interest groups. Both parties have plenty of wealth members.

So is your point that both parties suck and are bad for us? 'Cause if it is, I agree.

[SerScot]

Cybr,

And I think DMC hits on what Schiff was talking about in cail's videos - crony capitalism. Its not a level playing field now, so we're not talking about capitalism. I don't want to see the rich "pay their share". I want to see a level playing field. There is a difference b/w TBTF and other banks - and we know this is not capitalism.

I can't disagree with this. It is the collusion between big business and big government that chaps my ass.

[Lord Mhoram]

You won't find any argument from me on that front. What I just described, and I think it is a fair description of the facts that I'd be happy to discuss, is indeed the result of yet another consensus between both parties: that they prefer to be beholden to special interests and to craft and implement policies that benefit the wealthiest members of our society to the detriment of everybody else.

[Cail]

You won't find any argument from me on that front. What I just described, and I think it is a fair description of the facts that I'd be happy to discuss, is indeed the result of yet another consensus between both parties: that they prefer to be beholden to special interests and to craft and implement policies that benefit the wealthiest members of our society to the detriment of everybody else.

Well that goes without saying. The wealthiest members of society donate the most money to politicians, ergo they curry the most favor.

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm not sure if it goes without saying if we are saying that class warfare comes from the bottom and that "spreading the wealth around" in this country only means helping the middle class.