L.E Modesitt

[Dragonlily]

Avatar . I have several Watch friends on Facebook, so I'm not totally out of touch. Right now I'm listening to the last 1/3 of IMAGER'S CHALLENGE. I'm wearing my usual book addict hat.

[ussusimiel]

What are some of your favorite examples, if ya have the time?

I don't know if you've read The Ethos effect, Adiamante or Archform:Beauty but in all of those books the social cost and moral implications of actions (or lack of action) falls squarely on the hero/heroine because they accept that such things exist and so accept their responsibility in the face of them. They all pay a price for their moral stance in a society or situation where people refuse to take responsibility. It is this characteristic of being responsible that Modesitt seems to highlight as the mark of a hero (they also have exceptional abilities otherwise but they seem secondary).

u.

[Avatar]

Avatar . I have several Watch friends on Facebook, so I'm not totally out of touch.

That doesn't count.

--A

[Dragonlily]

[Linna Heartbooger]

What are some of your favorite examples, if ya have the time?

I don't know if you've read The Ethos effect, Adiamante or Archform:Beauty but in all of those books the social cost and moral implications of actions (or lack of action) falls squarely on the hero/heroine because they accept that such things exist and so accept their responsibility in the face of them. They all pay a price for their moral stance in a society or situation where people refuse to take responsibility. It is this characteristic of being responsible that Modesitt seems to highlight as the mark of a hero (they also have exceptional abilities otherwise but they seem secondary).

D'oh... nope I haven't... only SciFi I've read so far is "Flash" I think... great assessment of Modesitt's view on that though.
Most of them are thrust into those positions because of their exceptional abilities.

Most of them seem to have the problems which are theirs to deal with thrust upon them, though, right?

Hmmm, I think I'm gonna post my Modesitt list:
(Cuz I like it and it will make me feel like I've accomplished something?)
Recluse Saga
The 2 Lerris books ("The Magic of Recluse" and "The Death of Chaos")
The 2 Cerryl books ("The White Order" and "Colors of Chaos")
The Dorrin book ("The Magic Engineer")
The Creslin & Megaera book ("The Towers of the Sunset")
The first Nylan (and Ryba and Ayrlyn) book ("Fall of Angels")
The Justen book ("The Order War," I think)
Spellsong
The Spellsong Sorceress
Imager (Rhennthyl and Seliora in these)
Imager
Imager's Challenge
Imager's Intrigue
Sci-Fi
Flash

I guess then, another good question is... in light of there being these major, heroic cost-bearers... what have the supporting characters done that's really effective... in supporting them?

[ussusimiel]

Here's mine. Looks like you win by 1


The Magic of Recluce (1991)
The Towers of Sunset (1992)
The White Order (1998)
The Ethos Effect (2003)
Archform: Beauty (2000)
Legacies (2002)
Darknesses (2003)
Scepters (2004)
Imager (2009)
Adiamante (1996)

In terms of supporting characters, in the books that I've read and remember there usually seems to be some sort of family support (where the hero has inherited their moral outlook) and there is usually some people around who act as moral and physical support. The hero/heroine may be isolated by general society but that doesn't mean that they are isolated personally.

u.

[Linna Heartbooger]

...in the books that I've read and remember there usually seems to be some sort of family support (where the hero has inherited their moral outlook)

thank u for bringing up that point, u...

[Dragonlily]

Excellent analysis of Modesitt's main thrust. That explains one of the things I've disliked in his plots - the lack of action in the governments on the "good" side. Now I'll be able to read those parts without cringing.

So far I've read:
Imager
Imager's Challenge
Imager's Intrigue
The Parafaith War
Gravity Dreams
The Soprano Sorceress
The Spellsong War
Archform: Beauty
Flash
The Hammer Of Darkness
Adiamante
The Elysium Commission
Spec-Ops

Heading out to buy the sequels to The Hunger Games.

[Linna Heartbooger]

u- I didn't tell you at the time, but I was really encouraged by the concept you brought up of "the hero has inherited [his family's] moral outlook."

I was concerned that if the positive qualities someone has are "mostly a lot like their parents are," that means they haven't become their own person. But actually, they still can "own" those qualities themselves in a meaningful way. (and Modessitt's certainly do!)

Actually made me feel like part of something bigger than myself in a good way at that time (a couple months back) when I was generally unhappy about the way humans are.

Heading out to buy the sequels to The Hunger Games.

Oooh, ooh.. loved Hunger Games... found the sequels difficult to put down, though I thought the first was the best.
And then the movie even came out... (I haven't seen it yet though.)

Excellent analysis of Modesitt's main thrust. That explains one of the things I've disliked in his plots - the lack of action in the governments on the "good" side. Now I'll be able to read those parts without cringing.

*sigh* Yeah... if they don't act, I cringe. If they take action, I cringe...

I swear I just read a quote about heroes being people who are willing to be responsible for a whole lot of people dying.
Could have been the chrons; could have been in the mouth of an evil character in "Reave the Just" for all I remember.. hrmm.

But Modesitt's heroic characters... they are the people willing to take action and end up with a lot of "blood on their hands" while everyone else turns a blind eye to how things are going bad.

[ussusimiel]

u- I didn't tell you at the time, but I was really encouraged by the concept you brought up of "the hero has inherited [his family's] moral outlook."

I was concerned that if the positive qualities someone has are "mostly a lot like their parents are," that means they haven't become their own person. But actually, they still can "own" those qualities themselves in a meaningful way. (and Modessitt's certainly do!)

Actually made me feel like part of something bigger than myself in a good way at that time (a couple months back) when I was generally unhappy about the way humans are.

You're welcome, Linna!

Mr. Modesitt provides plenty of opportunities to ruminate on the ethical and the moral. I've just finished my yearly re-read of Adiamante and if you haven't read it yet you have a pleasure in store. It takes the personal responsibility aspect of morality and ethics to another level again (as well as being a finely written fine story )

u.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Oooh, a book that you deem merits a yearly re-read...

[ussusimiel]

Oooh, a book that you deem merits a yearly re-read...

Purely subjective. I'm the same person who is utterly mired in the middle of AATE and is a die-hard member of THOOLAH. I used to be a big fan of Chris De Burgh and Dan Fogelberg. And I have soft spot for rom-coms like 'High Fidelity' and 'Runaway Bride' (the kiss of death for coolness and taste in certain male company ).

u.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Well, I'm gonna use "current reading" as an excuse to talk on this thread...

Finished "Scholar" a couple weeks ago... it took me rather long.
(I'd decided to make more of an effort than usual to imagine the spatial placements/layouts that Modesitt describes - which he often does in detail.
I'm usually lazy about that, so this made things slower.
But i'm sure that wasn't the only thing slowing me down.)

Then started on "Princeps," and I've been zipping through it.
I made a comment about that to my husband and he said, "Oh yeah... that one's mostly fluff ..it's there to connect the first book to where he's going with the series."

Well, that explains some things!
I certainly didn't recognize it as fluff... I suspect I like this book partly because it "spells everything out for me."

[Linna Heartbooger]

Oooh, a book that you deem merits a yearly re-read...

Purely subjective. I'm the same person who is utterly mired in the middle of AATE and is a die-hard member of THOOLAH. I used to be a big fan of Chris De Burgh and Dan Fogelberg. And I have soft spot for rom-coms like 'High Fidelity' and 'Runaway Bride' (the kiss of death for coolness and taste in certain male company ).

Btw, this had sounded like caveat combined with self-deprecation, so I didn't know what to say....
(Here I just wanted you to talk more about "Adiamante" and why it and/or the characters in it are especially awesome without giving away extremely plot-critical spoilers.)
Also, I don't know who most of those people and or what those rom-coms are. (though THAT says more about my being out-of touch with popular culture and/or not owning a TV than it does about other stuff?)

Pros and cons of "Adiamante" versus "Archform: Beauty"?
______________________________________

Anyways, I came to post here cause I just finished "Princeps"... way faster read for me than "Scholar" was.
In the middle of the book, I talked to my hubby about how fast it was going.
He was like "Oh, yeah, that one's mostly fluff."
Me: "?!??!?"
Then he explained to me what -his- definition of "fluff" was, and I felt better.

So now that I am done with that one I'm hungry for more, so I checked Wikipedia and... TWO more Imager books slated to come out next year:
Imager's Battalion (January 22, 2013)
Antiagon Fire (May 28, 2013)
...and a third one with a title but no date.



(DOUBLE-POST - Bah!)

[Dragonlily]

I got a third of the way into MAGIC OF RECLUSE and stopped. Doesn't seem like there's much original about it. Anyone want to tell me why I should continue?

[Linna Heartbooger]

What, are you saying you don't think Tamra is completely awesome?

About a third of the way through... I would ask what's just happened.
...but I realize you may not have put this down recently.

Well, here's my reasons:

1. The Legends are REAL...
The various legends that are referenced throughout the story ...Creslin & Maegera founding Reculse, the city that used to be at Fr'vn, the ancient Westwind guards... all those stories of people pulling off EPIC exploits for some reason or other... they all have some basis in the history of what happened in that world; and Modesitt writes out whole books with these people's sagas from history.
(And they're real, flesh-and-blood people who I love following around. And the events/realities that the legends are based on are often stranger than I anticipated!)

3. In some of the conflicts in Recluse, you get to see ethical leaders being pushed into brutal conflicts on both sides.
(When I realized Modesitt was writing a book from each side of one of the conflicts, I was amazed.)

4. As good a foot-in-the-door to Recluse Saga as any, and better than some.
That said, now that you've got some background, maybe it wouldn't hurt to switch to "The Towers of the Sunset" or "The White Order" instead.

5. Lerris
That sweet, hapless boy. How can you not love him?
(lol; maybe not everyone would agree with me. what do you think?)

6. My husband's contribution:
"The only point to 'The Magic of Recluse,' is it deals with the question of, 'Why don't people learn anyway?' "
(which I think is a biggie)

Hmm... sorta got an excessively long post here; sorry about that.

[Dragonlily]

Very good post, Linna. I started the series with book 1 as I normally do, and don't plan to switch around. I'm at Chapter 23, and Lerris is crossing a border through what appears to be a magician's cold rain.

[ussusimiel]

I got a third of the way into MAGIC OF RECLUSE and stopped. Doesn't seem like there's much original about it. Anyone want to tell me why I should continue?

I like Modesitt, but I'm not gone on the Recluce series.

Spoiler

It plays out one of Modesitt's constant themes of the price of power, but does it in that annoying (to me) Star Wars' manner of 'the balance of the Force'. I'm all for balance in real life (where it rarely exists between the powerful and those without power), but I prefer my fiction to allow good triumph over evil (or vice versa). SRD does it brilliantly. Although TC and Lord Foul can be seen to be in balance, the manner in which TC grapples with Foul is transformative (for TC and the reader).

You can dip in and out of the later books and get a sense of the deeper history that Linna mentions without spoiling the earlier books (I think). I read The White Order and enjoyed it.

(Here I just wanted you to talk more about "Adiamante" and why it and/or the characters in it are especially awesome without giving away extremely plot-critical spoilers.)

Pros and cons of "Adiamante" versus "Archform: Beauty"?

Have you read them yet? If you haven't I wouldn't want to talk about Adiamante at all because it's such a short book that I don't know if I could address it without being spoilerific.

Archform Beauty is a different prospect because I don't think it is as well-realised as Adiamante. Consequently the characters aren't as strong and the theme(s) not as well defined and worked out.

u.

[Dragonlily]

Yes, I've read ANDIAMANTE and ARCHFORM BEAUTY. I'd say ANDIAMANTE's plot is mostly theme, and it is the people who make it live. ARCHFORM BEAUTY has the more complicated plot. If I remember right, giving away parts of the plot doesn't give away what ultimately happens.

[ussusimiel]

Yes, I've read ANDIAMANTE and ARCHFORM BEAUTY. I'd say ANDIAMANTE's plot is mostly theme, and it is the people who make it live. ARCHFORM BEAUTY has the more complicated plot. If I remember right, giving away parts of the plot doesn't give away what ultimately happens.

Not in Archform: Beauty, but I think it would in Adiamante.

Archform: Beauty is one of my least favourite Modesitt standalone sci-fi books for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there isn't really a central character. There are a couple of not fully-realised main characters and a few important side-characters. Secondly, the main theme of the book, that the aesthetic/beauty is important, is more of a concept rather than a moral dilemma that is embodied by a character. This, for me, doesn't play to Modesitt's strengths as a writer. Finally, IIRC, not a whole lot of significance happens, which leaves this reader wondering what was really at stake in the first place.

Those are the cons. The pros are that it's a standalone sci-fi book by L.E. Modesitt and they are generally above par, as this one is

u.