Criminalizing Bullying

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Hashi Lebwohl
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Criminalizing Bullying

Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Saw this story via AJA and it asks a very pertinent question: should bullying be made a criminal offense?
CARSON, Calif. — When Councilman Mike Gipson heard that a 16-year-old in nearby Compton had killed himself just before a parent-teacher conference because he had been bullied in school, he knew he had to do something.

“He was bullied from middle school to high school,” Gipson said. “His parents found him in a puddle of blood … the same age as my son.”

Then there was a gay student in Monterey who was shot in the back of the head in class by a boy he was rumored to have a crush on.

“When we look at all these situations, we had to do something in the spirit of saving lives,” Gipson said.

His solution is to make bullying a criminal offense that could result in misdemeanor charges against children as young as 5 and young adults as old as 25. People 18 or older who violate the code could face a misdemeanor charge on the first offense. Minors and their parents would face up to a $100 fine for a first violation, as much as $200 for a second and up to $500 and a misdemeanor charge for a third.

The Carson City Council is expected to approve the ordinance Tuesday, making it the first city in California to criminalize bullying and the only one in the nation with such harsh penalties. It would take effect within 30 days.

The proposed ordinance defines bullying to include verbal, physical and written harassment, including cyberbullying.

“If I’m a parent who receives a citation, I should think that maybe my child needs some help,” said Gipson, a Democrat and third-term councilman who is running for the 64th District seat in the California State Assembly.

“I can’t accept it when people say, ‘It’s part of growing up.’ Is suicide a part of growing up?” he said. “Small bullies become big bullies.”

National and state anti-bullying campaigns have sprung up in the last decade. A 2011 Centers for Disease Control study that found that 20 percent of high school students reported being bullied at school the prior year sparked more action. The CDC said harassment can result in murder, suicide, physical injury, social and emotional distress, depression, anxiety and problems at school and with sleeping.
I can see the positive outcomes Mr. Gipson would like to have but is it wise to saddle elementary school kids a criminal record? Second-graders are not rational beings and sometimes they may randomly say something to each other which could be construed as bullying; this is something that would be on their record until they are 18 and could, actually, wind up being used against them in a cruel and bullying manner--"hah hah! David's a bully! David's a bully! he's got a record! he's got a record! are you going to join the Mafia since you are a criminal? are you a thug? you should be behind bars!".

Also, their definition of bullying is far too vague to be useful. The phrase "you dressed sloppily today" could be taken as bullying, depending upon who said it, how it is said, and the emotional framework of the person to whom it was said. If I don't let our son play a video game at a particular point in time he may say "but I didn't get a turn on the computer! you're mean", but is this bullying? If I tell our daughter "those pants do not go with that shirt--go change" she may storm off half-shouting "why can't I be cute?! You don't let me dress myself! You must not love me!" but that certainly wasn't bullying.

It is also helpful--albeit not cost- or time-effective--to look into the reasons why a particular bully, if that sort of behavior has clear indicators and an established history, is a bully. Perhaps they live with a bully and the behavior is learned. Perhaps they were abused by a relative or foster parent. Perhaps they have undiagnosed behavioral or emotional problems which require medication. Perhaps their mother has a revolving door of male "acquaintances" at the house. Perhaps a parent died while fighting in a war and they don't know how to handle it. Or...perhaps that little shit is just an asshole. Anyway...it isn't helpful to the bully, much less to anyone else, to give them a ticket or a criminal offense and think that will somehow solve the problem. How many criminals are career criminals, repeating offenses over and over because they simply don't learn the lesson?

On the other hand, we keep teaching children not to solve problems with violence and we have done such a good job at this that they lack the skills to deal with bullies, who thrive on conflict or the feelings of superiority they gain from abusing someone else. Perhaps if the bully got the black eye he deserved or if her front two teeth got knocked out they might quit that sort of crap. Perhaps if corporal punishment got reintroduced into schools this sort of thing might ease up--the punishment for bullying someone is that you get five licks in front of the class or at least you have to draw a ring on the chalkboard and put your nose in it until you are told to sit down. Sending kids to d-hall or on-campus suspension is meaningless--our daughter got sent to ISS (her school's version of on-campus suspension) and what was the end result? She earned some "street cred" with the wild-child crowd. [sarcasm]Great.[/sarcasm]

Cyberbullying....well, there is an easy answer to that--don't go to social media with your computer. Block people who engage in the behavior. Of course, you should also screen-shot and/or print their cyberbullying so that you can give it to them for graduation, saying "remember when? you're an asshole". Don't forget to keep giving it to them at every reunion, as well, just so they remember what they did until they sincerely apologize in front of everyone.

Clearly, though, the victims need to be taught how to deal with bullying. I got bullied in elementary school. I remember some jerk taunting me calling me "Einstein" until I looked at him one day and said out loud in class "so....you're trying to insult me be calling me smart? smarter than you? really?" He didn't say it any more after that. I didn't have as much luck with my older brother, though, who nearly dislocated my shoulder once...but don't tell my mother--she still doesn't know that. Still...living well is the best revenge--he failed out of college, clearing the way for me to be the first in my family to graduate from university.
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Post by Vraith »

Many good points...some I agree with, some not, but most just complicated.

I've said before that the number of bullies who have NOT been bullied approaches zero...
AND/YET...what it takes to be a bully is not all that different from what it takes to stand up to a bully.
AND...we freaking worship the identical attribute/characteristic...bullies are the people we make into role-models.
Batman is a freaking bully. [or is he?]

That's just the surface...the very shallow surface. Microtesimal.

It would be easier [like so many other things] if the maturity-point where an instance/event could become ingrained behavior didn't happen mostly before rationality was an applicable option.
And if the instancing were anything close to predictable.
Over-all, we're doing better.

But we need to get rid of things [like zero-tolerance nearly all cases] that are counterproductive.

Criminalizing is entirely the bullshit answer though.
If I were a conspiracy buff...like you've been here and there on the watch ;) I'd say that criminalizing bullying is the way to keep putting black boys in jail, since people don't like the war on drugs anymore.
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Post by Orlion »

Gee, all this emotion is clouding up the issue. Shooting someone in the back of the head is not bullying, that's called murder/assault.

The only way to deal with this is to teach the children how to deal with "being bullied". Why do children bully other children? Because they are targets for whatever reason. If the child is teased as being "smelly McGee", instead of cuddling your poor victim, you may want to consider: does your child have poor hygienic habits?
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Post by Vraith »

Orlion wrote:Why do children bully other children? Because they are targets for whatever reason. If the child is teased as being "smelly McGee", instead of cuddling your poor victim, you may want to consider: does your child have poor hygienic habits?
Yea? Really?
Bullshit.
One in ten or twenty might be what you say.
But it isn't anything close to that simple.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Cail »

Orlion wrote:Gee, all this emotion is clouding up the issue. Shooting someone in the back of the head is not bullying, that's called murder/assault.

The only way to deal with this is to teach the children how to deal with "being bullied". Why do children bully other children? Because they are targets for whatever reason. If the child is teased as being "smelly McGee", instead of cuddling your poor victim, you may want to consider: does your child have poor hygienic habits?
Right on.

And I'm sorry, but freaking deal with it. Everyone gets/got bullied. You either shame the bully into stopping, you beat the snot out of the bully, or you ignore them.

People today and their precious damn kids....
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Post by Orlion »

Vraith wrote:
Orlion wrote:Why do children bully other children? Because they are targets for whatever reason. If the child is teased as being "smelly McGee", instead of cuddling your poor victim, you may want to consider: does your child have poor hygienic habits?
Yea? Really?
Bullshit.
One in ten or twenty might be what you say.
But it isn't anything close to that simple.
It really is. Children pick on others who are "different". That makes them a target. The only other thing I would add is that by playing the part of the victim, you continue being bullied... you give what is desired.

Roll with the punches, change what you can, and/or give out the punches and most bullying situations would be diffused. There, bullying problem solved.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Orlion wrote:
It really is. Children pick on others who are "different". That makes them a target. The only other thing I would add is that by playing the part of the victim, you continue being bullied... you give what is desired.

Roll with the punches, change what you can, and/or give out the punches and most bullying situations would be diffused. There, bullying problem solved.
Agreed. The more we coddle our children, the more we try to protect them from everything that can go wrong, the less likely they will learn to deal with these situations. Now Im not saying we dont try to stop it when we know its happening. But to criminalize it? Nah.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Cail wrote:
Orlion wrote:Gee, all this emotion is clouding up the issue. Shooting someone in the back of the head is not bullying, that's called murder/assault.

The only way to deal with this is to teach the children how to deal with "being bullied". Why do children bully other children? Because they are targets for whatever reason. If the child is teased as being "smelly McGee", instead of cuddling your poor victim, you may want to consider: does your child have poor hygienic habits?
Right on.

And I'm sorry, but freaking deal with it. Everyone gets/got bullied. You either shame the bully into stopping, you beat the snot out of the bully, or you ignore them.

People today and their precious damn kids....
Orlion is right: people get bullied because they make themselves a target one way or another. And Cail is both right/wrong: not everyone gets bullied becuase not everyone makes himself a target, though everyone should learn the mechanisms of this social dynamic, so they can continue preventing it in their own lives and help their kids. And to round things off, even Vraith is correct: it's complicated.

To be clear, I'm not blaming the victim. The bully's actions are his own fault. But it's complicated because bullies are often your friends. Listen to kids on an Xbox party sometime. The "razzing" can quickly escalate to something else. And the person who handles it the least effective makes himself a target; then others will often follow the "alpha male's" lead and jump on the bandwagon. But these are just kids, not criminals. They are all learning how to engage socially. The victim has an important life lesson to learn here.

Bullying doesn't stop after graduation. It continues on to the office, sometimes it's even your boss ... or spouse. Most of the time it's "benign" bullying that no law would ever catch. Parents who intervene, or laws that would intervene, do the kids a disservice by not allowing them to develop this vital skill on their own ... parents will not be there to protect you from your coworkers or boss or spouse.

The damage a bully does to you goes way beyond the bully's actions, into your own self-esteem, especially when you do not handle it yourself. That produces its own kind of damage, much worse, because you let it happen. You begin to think of yourself as a victim, which attracts even more bullying. But more importantly, it alters your self-perception so that you begin to think it's your fault or you deserve it. (And if you let it happen, there's actually a grain of truth to this ... which makes it hurt even more.)

Most bullying at the stage I've described above (i.e. children, often friends) can be stopped by pro-active language. Instead of whining, "Stop bullying meee!" you should say, "I am not going to let you bully me." Own it. Take ownership. If they bully you for being overweight, say, "Yes, I'm overweight. So what? You're an asshole and a bully. I will not let you bully me."

There are many books on the issue, written by psychologists (which my wife has read ... I'm just paraphrasing her research). Don't listen to educators. This is not their area of expertise. They just want the symptoms of the problem to go away, they don't want to fix the underlying issues.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Zarathustra wrote: Most bullying at the stage I've described above (i.e. children, often friends) can be stopped by pro-active language. Instead of whining, "Stop bullying meee!" you should say, "I am not going to let you bully me." Own it. Take ownership. If they bully you for being overweight, say, "Yes, I'm overweight. So what? You're an asshole and a bully. I will not let you bully me."

There are many books on the issue, written by psychologists (which my wife has read ... I'm just paraphrasing her research). Don't listen to educators. This is not their area of expertise. They just want the symptoms of the problem to go away, they don't want to fix the underlying issues.
^ +1 Interwebz for that.

My advice to our daughter has always been "if someone is calling you names just roll your eyes and ignore it--you know you aren't whatever they are calling you". If they physically bully her, though, I have advised her to punch back, go for the groin, or--in a worst-case scenario--go for the eyeball.

Schools--specifically the administrators rather than the teachers--want students to be good little automatons who politely sit in their desks and never make waves. Given the fact that there is really nothing schools can do about bullies other than place them in alternate classrooms, suspend them, or expel them I do not disagree that they would simply like the problem to go away. The only way to stop a child from being a bully to other children is to get the parents involved--it is their problem to stop...presuming you can get them interested enough to stop it.
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Post by Orlion »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Zarathustra wrote: Most bullying at the stage I've described above (i.e. children, often friends) can be stopped by pro-active language. Instead of whining, "Stop bullying meee!" you should say, "I am not going to let you bully me." Own it. Take ownership. If they bully you for being overweight, say, "Yes, I'm overweight. So what? You're an asshole and a bully. I will not let you bully me."

There are many books on the issue, written by psychologists (which my wife has read ... I'm just paraphrasing her research). Don't listen to educators. This is not their area of expertise. They just want the symptoms of the problem to go away, they don't want to fix the underlying issues.
^ +1 Interwebz for that.

My advice to our daughter has always been "if someone is calling you names just roll your eyes and ignore it--you know you aren't whatever they are calling you". If they physically bully her, though, I have advised her to punch back, go for the groin, or--in a worst-case scenario--go for the eyeball.

Schools--specifically the administrators rather than the teachers--want students to be good little automatons who politely sit in their desks and never make waves. Given the fact that there is really nothing schools can do about bullies other than place them in alternate classrooms, suspend them, or expel them I do not disagree that they would simply like the problem to go away. The only way to stop a child from being a bully to other children is to get the parents involved--it is their problem to stop...presuming you can get them interested enough to stop it.
Z did write an excellent post. And your advice to your daughter also reminded me of something:

Kids are like dogs/cats in a way. They'll try to do something to see if they can get away with it and if stopped immediately, that behaviour will not become habitual.

It's when they are able to get away with it or get what they want (i.e. begging for food scraps) that the behaviour continues. Bullys are the same way. If they get the torment they want, they continue. If they don't, what then? They'll mostly leave you alone and talk behind your back. Big...fucking...deal. And if they care enough to try to physically intimidate you? You better put that dog in its place and make it realize that it is not the alpha.

I have found from observation and personal experience that if you don't interact with bullys, they tend not to interact with you. Don't try to understand them, don't try to befriend them, just treat them like the ants they are. It is very narcissist of the victim to think they are so important that the bully can not possibly function without them being at the center of their lives.

It's really a basic social norm: if you can't get what you want out of a "relationship" with someone, you go to someone else who can. The key to dealing with bullys is to find out what it is they want and act accordingly. And kids aren't that complex, so it'll be easy to find out:

1) They don't want you around. They don't value your company, so don't seek it.

2) They want to be entertained. Don't entertain them.

3) They want to exert dominance. Tell them to piss off and go about your affairs.
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Post by SoulBiter »

From Elementary school through Highschool, the teachers and administrators never seemed to 'get' why I wouldnt discipline my kids if they 'hit back'. I dont have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times I was told, "violence is never the answer, they need to get a teacher involved".
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Post by Vraith »

Zarathustra wrote: Don't listen to educators.

They just want the symptoms of the problem to go away, they don't want to fix the underlying issues.
That depends on the educator, how they were trained.

And the majority of schools have put in place policies that explicitly prevent teachers from doing much more than politely asking the bully to please stop and filing a report.

Part of the problem that almost always gets ignored is that the bully/victim relationship takes place in a social web...the dark underbelly is the bystanders approval/identification with the bully.
Bullying is a group activity.
Most bullies aren't "thugs" as the media likes to show.
They're generally smarter, socially adept, and popular.

And, fun fact, though I don't recall the exact number:
Both bullies AND victims are far more likely to end up in prison as adults [something around twice the rate].
And a host of other problems.
Most bullies never stop being bullies...especially if they start before age 12.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Orlion »

Vraith, I don't think you used a single parenthesis in that post :P

But you are correct in asserting that bullying is generally a group activity. I still believe the solution is the same, but it's this group aspect that tends to bother the victims the most.
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Post by Holsety »

Orlion wrote:Vraith, I don't think you used a single parenthesis in that post :P

But you are correct in asserting that bullying is generally a group activity. I still believe the solution is the same, but it's this group aspect that tends to bother the victims the most.
He didn't use any parentheses, but he did use brackets to serve the same function :P
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Post by Vraith »

Holsety wrote:, but he did use brackets to serve the same function :P
Yea...but only ONCE. And very briefly. And not a steeply-angled vector away from the main point.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Learning how to deal with difficult people and difficult situations is a part of growing up. Once these kids become adults, there won't be any teachers or school administrators to rush in and rescue them. Children need to learn how to cope with hateful people.

Now physical assaults are a different matter. I do believe that in such cases that now the legal system needs to be involved. Perhaps if we can convince some of these parents that not only is "Little Johnny, and Little Janie," not angels, but in fact are little monsters and they need to start doing the parental thing and take some responsibility for thier childrens actions.

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teen- ... -1.1342493
A Jackonsville, Fla., girl attacked her schoolmate outside the school — leaving the 14-year-old with a fractured skull — and, as a result, a judge has banned the attacker from returning to any public schools in Duval County.

A teenage girl, who pummeled a schoolmate in a Jacksonville, Fla., middle school and left her with a fractured skull, has been banned by a court order from attending any public schools in the county.

A Florida appeals court has since suspended the order by Florida circuit Judge Henry Davis, who wrote that the alleged attacker — so far unnamed — "is a threat to all of the children at any school. The injunction is a permanent injunction barring this child from returning to any public school in Duval County."

It was two months ago when the victim, 14-year-old Aria Jewitt, was attacked near the Oceanway Middle school by a female classmate, who slammed the victim's head into a stone wall while about 30 other students watched. The attacker was arrested for aggravated assault.

The event was recorded on a mobile phone, showing how the attacker continued to beat on Jewitt after she had fallen to the ground.

"She had everyone else videotape it," Jewett said according to CBS News.. "She had the girl bring me over there. She probably had this planned."

Jewett said that her attacker has a history of videotaped assaults like this. She claims to have seen five of them, "and she still never got expelled or anything."

The attack has upset the community, but not the school's superintendent.

"I don't think we should use the bad decision that children make outside of school as an example or scapegoat to make a message," Superintendent Nikolai Vitti said, who countered Judge Davis' ruling by saying that public education is a constitutional right.

"I believe the perpetrator should be provided the same opportunity," Vitti said. "It's a tough decision, but my role as superintendent is to support the law."

A lawyer for Jewett's attacker told CBS News in a statement: "Our goal is to return our client, a child, to a public school so she can complete her studies for this academic year."

swilliams@nydailynews.com
The judges ruling was overturned and the girl was legally allowed to return to school, though I understand the parents took the kid and moved.
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Post by Avatar »

SoulBiter wrote:From Elementary school through Highschool, the teachers and administrators never seemed to 'get' why I wouldnt discipline my kids if they 'hit back'.
Haha, that's pretty much the GF's response...if somebody bullies you, hit them back. Hard.

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Rawedge Rim wrote: The judges ruling was overturned and the girl was legally allowed to return to school, though I understand the parents took the kid and moved.
She should have been placed in off-campus/alternative schooling for the remainder of her school career, presuming she wasn't being taught in whatever school arrangements counties make for juvenile offenders who are incarcerated. If some drastic action is not taken to change the course of her life, this girl is going to kill someone--she clearly has violent tendencies the causes of which need to be addressed.
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