What if the Sun were to go Nova

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Vraith
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Post by Vraith »

Zarathustra wrote: Maybe we could also find a single technological solution to lacking self-restraint, then it wouldn't matter. But then we wouldn't have the risk takers who make such things possible, by refusing to restrain themselves to what is given.
Indeed. Self-restraint as a global attribute [or fundamental property] can't be a good thing. Not physically, mentally, or emotionally.
I don't want to go off-topic for too long...but on the related issue of "instant gratification" and people who have difficulties with it: turns out there are at least 2 broad ways it comes about socially.
One arises generally from too much/many things being "given" to you, irrespective of ones own actions. This one can, with effort almost always...and sometime just naturally through living...be overcome/controlled/dealt with.
The other arises from too many broken promises...and it doesn't matter if the breaking was random/accidental, intentional, or as a consequence/punishment [Yes, I promised you could have pizza. But you hit your brother so now you can't]. That one is almost impossible to change. If you manage to control it in one aspect of your life, it resurfaces/transfers to another aspect.

Slightly more on topic, but still connected to above...at least it relates to Cho's post [and I think some others I read before?] on who we should choose:
Most research now suggests that intelligence has a strong genetic component...so we want smart people.
Creativity is ALSO partly genetic...not as strong as intelligence, but significant.
So we want smart and creative, not a lottery. [[note: neither seems strictly DETERMINED by specific genes...but we're talking about raising the odds, and we can KNOW the genetic part. The environmental/cultural circumstances are not predictable even though we know they have an influence.]]
And it turns out we want to give equal or more weight to the highly creative than the highly intelligent. Why? Because looking at success across the board [and in completely different cultural/economic/political systems] people who are in the top 25% creatively...yes, there are "tests" for that...have achievement rates equal to those in the top 1% of IQ. Achievements as broadly defined as graduating in the top 5% of High School class to filing patents to winning an arts award to dying rich. [though as a practical matter, we can probably choose people who are very high in both]
Another thing we don't have to worry much about: physical fitness.
As anyone who has ever really competed in sports, or paid attention to something besides the stat charts of athletes, knows...smart and creative people ALSO tend to be strong and healthy on average [and/or the reverse...talented athletes are also, on average, smarter and more creative than an average person].
Given the number of folk there ARE, there is no practical problem finding folk with all 3 attributes.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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And if you don't fit the criteria, you can stay behind and die. :D

--A
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Hashi Lebwohl
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

That is why I am not going to fall for the trick of trying to determine a set of characteristics which will determine who gets to escape and live and who gets to stay behind and die. If a sufficient sample size and cross-section of humanity is not taken then it doesn't matter who you take because the end result will always be the same--extinction--even if you took only young, healthy, intelligent, and creative people.
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Vraith
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Hashi Lebwohl wrote:That is why I am not going to fall for the trick of trying to determine a set of characteristics which will determine who gets to escape and live and who gets to stay behind and die. If a sufficient sample size and cross-section of humanity is not taken then it doesn't matter who you take because the end result will always be the same--extinction--even if you took only young, healthy, intelligent, and creative people.
Well...essentially the migration is creating a bottleneck.
If it lasts too long [and everyone is alive and conscious aboard a ship while searching for a planet] even a million totally unrelated folk to start won't be enough. If only a few people are alive and conscious at once, and everyone else is either cryo-sleeping or frozen embryos waiting to be raised by robots, software, and the new planet's environmental challenges...you only need a thousand or so. And it is easy to find a highly distant [genetically] group of a thousand while STILL having all of them meet very high standards of intelligence, creativity, and health. I think you could find several tens of millions of folk who are in the top 10% of all the categories and still very genetically diverse.

I'm not at all sure I want to be the guy who decides, though. [or even the guy who writes the code that sorts the data that makes the decision] I'd do it, I think. But I'd pray [even though I think any god/afterlife unlikely] I decided right and didn't miss something...after doing that, I'm not sure if I'd immediately kill myself for doing it...or if I'd try to stay alive and witness the death of everyone I'd doomed by not picking them.

The best/coolest option is everyone gets to go and live somewhere.
I'm working on a book where, avoiding spoilers, such a diaspora happens...[but it isn't related to a Nova, or a need to save humanity really.
It's just part of the history. Part of the milieu...at least so people THINK!!! [duh duh duh]. [[honestly, I'm not far enough along to know if its important, or just part of the historical furniture.]].
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Vraith wrote:I'm not at all sure I want to be the guy who decides, though. [or even the guy who writes the code that sorts the data that makes the decision] I'd do it, I think. But I'd pray [even though I think any god/afterlife unlikely] I decided right and didn't miss something...after doing that, I'm not sure if I'd immediately kill myself for doing it...or if I'd try to stay alive and witness the death of everyone I'd doomed by not picking them.
The person who chooses who gets to leave must always stay behind; this will help insure that they are a little more impartial in their selection process.
To maximize the impartiality you assign everyone a number then have computer A generate a random number from 1 to 2000, computer B must then choose a random number from 1 to 2000 but it must do this as many times as the result from computer A, then computer C again chooses a random number as many times as the result from computer B. The three results are multiplied together and that is the person who is chosen. If it happens that the result is a duplicate of someone who was already chosen then if result A > result C the person whose number is closest to the duplicate but smaller is chosen and if A < C then the person whose number is closest but larger is chosen.
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But it's missing such a great opportunity to refine the future of humanity...

That said, I suppose in the long run it won't matter. The young, creative intelligent people are just as capable of producing lazy, stupid and dissolute offspring. A few dozen generations and we'll be back where we started probably. :D

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Post by ChoChiyo »

Avatar wrote:But it's missing such a great opportunity to refine the future of humanity...

That said, I suppose in the long run it won't matter. The young, creative intelligent people are just as capable of producing lazy, stupid and dissolute offspring. A few dozen generations and we'll be back where we started probably. :D

--A
I have seen this sad event happen far too many times with wonderful, ambitious, creative, hard working, morally exquisite people who produced slothful, arrogant, entitled, creepy little monsters who expect to be handed everything and be idolized for doing very little or nothing at all.

How does that happen?

Makes me want to invent disintegration chambers camoflauged as computer gaming terminals....with twinkies.
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Rawedge Rim
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Vraith wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:That is why I am not going to fall for the trick of trying to determine a set of characteristics which will determine who gets to escape and live and who gets to stay behind and die. If a sufficient sample size and cross-section of humanity is not taken then it doesn't matter who you take because the end result will always be the same--extinction--even if you took only young, healthy, intelligent, and creative people.
Well...essentially the migration is creating a bottleneck.
If it lasts too long [and everyone is alive and conscious aboard a ship while searching for a planet] even a million totally unrelated folk to start won't be enough. If only a few people are alive and conscious at once, and everyone else is either cryo-sleeping or frozen embryos waiting to be raised by robots, software, and the new planet's environmental challenges...you only need a thousand or so. And it is easy to find a highly distant [genetically] group of a thousand while STILL having all of them meet very high standards of intelligence, creativity, and health. I think you could find several tens of millions of folk who are in the top 10% of all the categories and still very genetically diverse.

I'm not at all sure I want to be the guy who decides, though. [or even the guy who writes the code that sorts the data that makes the decision] I'd do it, I think. But I'd pray [even though I think any god/afterlife unlikely] I decided right and didn't miss something...after doing that, I'm not sure if I'd immediately kill myself for doing it...or if I'd try to stay alive and witness the death of everyone I'd doomed by not picking them.

The best/coolest option is everyone gets to go and live somewhere.
I'm working on a book where, avoiding spoilers, such a diaspora happens...[but it isn't related to a Nova, or a need to save humanity really.
It's just part of the history. Part of the milieu...at least so people THINK!!! [duh duh duh]. [[honestly, I'm not far enough along to know if its important, or just part of the historical furniture.]].
Hope it doesn't look too much like "Tunnel in the Sky" :biggrin:

Frankly, something like in the above book (probably a wormhole like effect) would be about the only way to get a significant amount of people off this planet if overpopulation was the problem. (or Captain Tripps, but that a sucky way to go about it.)

As for just preserving the human race, robot ships would probably do the job, with frozen ova, and some way to download either just pure information or both information and a personality into a developing embryo.
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Vraith
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Post by Vraith »

Rawedge Rim wrote: Hope it doesn't look too much like "Tunnel in the Sky" :biggrin:
Go to HELL, man! You scared me for a second there...I hadn't read it in so long I panicked and had to look it up... :)

YOu almost gave me a heart attack!

But no, from the brief summary and what my memory tells me, nothing important is the same...
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Vraith wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote: Hope it doesn't look too much like "Tunnel in the Sky" :biggrin:
Go to HELL, man! You scared me for a second there...I hadn't read it in so long I panicked and had to look it up... :)

YOu almost gave me a heart attack!

But no, from the brief summary and what my memory tells me, nothing important is the same...
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
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ChoChiyo wrote:How does that happen?
Part of it has to be the parents. You don't feel self-entitled unless you get given everything without having to ever work for it, surely?

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Post by ChoChiyo »

Avatar wrote:
ChoChiyo wrote:How does that happen?
Part of it has to be the parents. You don't feel self-entitled unless you get given everything without having to ever work for it, surely?

--A
And they don't realize what they are turning their children into until it is too late and their children are already monsterous, entitled, compassionless, worthless little shits.

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Serves 'em right. :D This is why I have elected to remain childless. :D Well, one of the reasons anyway.

--A
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Post by SerScot »

Finn,
There are some that believe that such a threat (from climate change) is already with us: imagine the length of the thread in the Tank....... people would be calling each other "Novaists" and declaring that the science is all wrong and that the dangers are imaginary, created only to ensure that research money kept flowing!
Songs of Distant Earth does address that. There are two religious groups who attempted to destroy the Starship that escaped Earth's distruction, one that believed it was wrong for humanity to escape and that we were ment to die here, and another who believed the readings showing the impending Nova were a test from God and if we just have faith the Sun will be fine.
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