Changes

[Ananda]

Forgive me if this has been done already, but way too many threads to look at them all.

I was looking back at the last pages of this forum at some of the old discussions from 2003 and so and, a few pages with the previous button and I did start to see names of people who still post. It struck me that it is interesting that, unlike most, the participants of all these years have a fairly documented history of their thoughts on events, politics and life in general in a way that is different to someone who just does talk to others or even blog or so.

For some of the long term posters, looking back, I wonder how you have changed over time? For any others who don't post here for a long time, you have less record and rely more on thought, but also curious how you see yourself changing opinions over time as well.

[Holsety]

I don't post here a lot but,
Even though I still have the same political stance as I always had about abortion, I feel way less comfortable about it. It's not really a substantive change, but it still sort of effects how I feel about things.

I am more pro-gun than I used to be, though I don't have an interest in owning one myself. I also trust the police less.

In general I am a lot less opinionated, or at least that's the way it feels to me. Apathy rising, basically. Back when I was in high school I was really excited about voting. Now I just want to finish school and get a job.

EDIT-This has indeed been done before, but I have no idea how I'd go about finding the thread I do remember for you. I don't think I posted in it?

[lorin]

Do I count as a long term poster? No probably not, but will still contribute.

In my younger years I was very liberal.

But years of working for the government, seeing the dysfunction of government, the population I served and other people in general has swung me more toward the middle right.

I am pro abortion as a necessity but believe it is over used and believe it harms the mother as much as an unwanted pregnancy.

I believe the welfare system does not work, can not work the way it is handled now. I believe the welfare system must have a true time limit and be much harder to obtain.

I believe in some kind of government controlled healthcare system but admit what is in place has huge problems. And no I don't have a solution.

I believe we need to get the f - - k out of all these countries.

I think all government is corrupt on some level ALL GOVERNMENT

I remain very concerned about the environment, especially the damage being done in China.

I voted for Obama the first time. I did not vote the second election. I would probably maybe might vote Republican the next time (except if it is a Bush or Rubio)

To sum it up I know a lot less than I knew ten, twenty , thirty years ago. I am waaay more humble than I was.


edit to add - I think we should legalize marijuana across the board.

[Avatar]

Although there have been concessions as it were over the years, for the large part I think we maintain the general thrust of our opinions. And all the sprawling threads probably tie together some core positions that in the end, arise in all discussions.

That's why we love more participants...new perspectives, new revelations.

--A

[Cail]

Pretty much everyone here has had their views change over the years, some more radical than others.

I am far, far more "liberal" than I was when I joined (though it's a libertarian bent of liberal).

[SoulBiter]

I am much less 'right' than when I started here. I have moved toward the middle although people that are very left might think of me as still being far right.

My views on the World have expanded by just getting a perspective from people in other parts of the world.

My view of the Us and indeed the World media has been changed drastically.

I have always had a distrust of govt, my view of that has only been more solidified.

My views on Homosexuality has changed quite a bit.... my morals still says that the behavior is wrong. However intellectually my views have changed to an equal rights stance... not special rights, equal rights.

I'm sure there is much more.

[Ananda]

My views on the World have expanded by just getting a perspective from people in other parts of the world.

Same for me.

One thing I also noted is how some people have become very good at constructing their arguments over time and I am often impressed with the way some people can present their ideas. I often have a difficulty expressing what I want to say without going on tangents or losing my point or presenting less than succinct thoughts.

Do people feel that participating in something like this structured discussion has helped them solidify their ideas that had otherwise been hazy and to also help them learn how to present their ideas in a succinct and cogent manner?

[Vraith]

A fair number of things have changed for me. A fair number of things I see as more fluid, dynamic, turbulent and less categorical, monolithic, definitive. And a fair number have become firmer.
Whichever of those categories is true for a particular thought/idea/topic, though, almost all of my thinking in sooo MANY areas has been effected/influenced/expanded by things and people here. And that's saying something.

On this though:

Do people feel that participating in something like this structured discussion has helped them solidify their ideas that had otherwise been hazy and to also help them learn how to present their ideas in a succinct and cogent manner?

I like it, and usually [not always] read it pretty carefully when other people...particularly those I disagree with most, though also some that I generally agree with...do it. Lay it all out clearly, well-structured, etc...

But, as y'all can certainly tell, it normally drives me bat-shit crazy to do it myself. I'm aware that this gets me read less, probably responded to less, and respected less.
But I'd rarely post anything if I worked that way much beyond what I do now.

[Zarathustra]

As I've said before, I've changed on abortion and gay marriage.

Others have changed even more, sometimes 180 degrees to the position they used to criticize, though you might have a difficult time getting them to admit it, despite the clear record.

Knowledge cannot grow without error correction. There's no shame in being wrong. But it's simply evil to disallow the possibility of error correction. As David Deutsch points out, all evils facing mankind are instances of insufficient knowledge. And if knowledge can't grow without error correction, then unwillingness to admit when one is wrong is the greatest evil.

[Cail]

Knowledge cannot grow without error correction. There's no shame in being wrong. But it's simply evil to disallow the possibility of error correction. As David Deutsch points out, all evils facing mankind are instances of insufficient knowledge. And if knowledge can't grow without error correction, then unwillingness to admit when one is wrong is the greatest evil.

QFT.

Looking back at some of my first posts here, I'm pleased that I got a lot of stuff right. But damn I got a lot of stuff wrong too. Being able to recognize when you're wrong and modify your position based on new information (or new ways of looking at old information) is a sign of maturity and intelligence.

Which I guess makes me old and wise.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

One thing I also noted is how some people have become very good at constructing their arguments over time and I am often impressed with the way some people can present their ideas. I often have a difficulty expressing what I want to say without going on tangents or losing my point or presenting less than succinct thoughts.

Do people feel that participating in something like this structured discussion has helped them solidify their ideas that had otherwise been hazy and to also help them learn how to present their ideas in a succinct and cogent manner?

I haven't changed my views much since I got here but by the time I got here I had already been through 8 years of being on politics/current events fora in other places so I already had some of my rough edges smoothed.

Yes--structured discussions help people refine their arguments regardless of which side of an issue they may be arguing. Notice that I said "structured" discussions. No one wants to be in the middle of a flame-throwing, troll-baiting, knock-down-drag-out hissy fit. That is why there are so few people here at this time because those things happened in the past. We are doing better now but progress is slow. That being said, I am thankful for the progress.

[ussusimiel]

I think that my experience has been similar to most others: I've changed on a small number of issues (e.g. Gun Control and Peak oil (you should have seen the jaws drop )) and firmed up significantly on my core beliefs.

A couple of things that I have learned from crafting well-structured arguments is that I quickly realise when there is no studies or research for my position and a re-evaluation is necessary. And nearly always, in a good discussion, the objective is not to convince the other person of the strength of your position, but to convince yourself of it.

The best discussions I've had here have, at best, ended in each side arguing the other into respecting their position (even if they passionately disagree with it). Gaining the recognition of the validity of a position may be the single most important aspect of discourse. From that point, if necessary, compromise and consensus are possible. Conflict may be necessary to reach that point but unless it is reached, all you are left with is the conflict.

As the Right and the Left have gone head-to-head during my time here, I have come to realise that, for me, a combined position is possible. The egalitarianism and social justice of the Left needs the critique of the Right to be effective rather than aspirational. The harshness and coldly-principled nature of the Right needs to be tempered by the more human aspirations of the Left.

Endless conflict is possible, and it is possible that one side will eventually win out over the other, but it will not happen soon, and in the meantime we and others have our lives to live. Do we want to live them constantly fighting? Or can we find a way to work together using the best of both positions to improve our human condition? (I prefer the second way, but recognise that that may be the result of my 'liberal' character )

u.

[finn]

Ahhh, missed this at first Ananda; it has come up before but not so specifically!

I find my views are more often shaped than changed by the tank. I often read the views posted on a topic before taking a position and when I have then taken one, its normally battered on several sides till it sort of coalesces into what I think about the subject. Having said that it also forces me to research what's going on which has over the years greatly improved my knowledge on a variety of topics.

The 'tank' posters are a varied group but seldom does anyone post real nonsense: the intelligence and intuition of this group as a whole along with all the individuals, is I believe of a very high standard.

However I have changed my views on some subjects, not a 180, but certainly a substantial shift in my views and perceptions. I have changed my position on Abortion and Global Warming due to the dogged intransigence and raw passion of their advocates. There is also humour, persistence and belief mixed in with experience, common sense and intellect which will cover most aspects of most subjects. Now not all of us play well together, but the best way to challenge each other is not to form mutual admiration parties! The more bitter the argument the tougher the test and this is the crucible where people's positions are either galvanised or melted down ..... and long may it continue.

[Cybrweez]

In general I am a lot less opinionated, or at least that's the way it feels to me. Apathy rising, basically.

Yea. I've realized what all this discussion means - nothing. And worse, it's the same at a govt level.

In my younger years I was very liberal.

But years of working for the government

“Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”
― Winston Churchill

[Ananda]

In general I am a lot less opinionated, or at least that's the way it feels to me. Apathy rising, basically.

Yea. I've realized what all this discussion means - nothing. And worse, it's the same at a govt level.

In my younger years I was very liberal.

But years of working for the government

“Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”
― Winston Churchill

Weez,
I agree on this meaning nothing. I always think of one of my favourite poems when discussing 'important' issues. Actually, you might like the poem since you are a pretty spiritual type if I am not confused.
a bit of it goes like this:

What is social company
But a babbling summer stream?
What our wise philosophy
But the glancing of a dream?

From Christopher Cranch's poem Gnosis

As to becoming more conservative as you get older, I think that is just one type of person among many. People who still listen to the same type of music that they listened to 'in their day'.

For me, I become more open minded as I get older because it all is just babble.

[Avatar]

Everything we believe may be wrong.

--A

[Ananda]

Everything we believe may be wrong.

--A

Most definitely. Having a closely held belief and believing it to be sacred is to forget that our ideas are subjective and objective being has nothing to do with them. All one has to do is to look at her life and see that her mind changes with time and that, if you were in another skin, you'd be someone else, believing different things. Joyful participation in the illusion has been suggested.

[Cybrweez]

Everything we believe may be wrong.

--A

Nah, just you

[sgt.null]

I trust cops less.

other than that I remain constant in my views. very conservative on crime and punishment, excepting that we need to legalize weed. still oppose abortion, favor gay marriage.