Are we sheep?

[ussusimiel]

Orlion, can you name another time when a Libertarian has had a legitimate shot at becoming President? When you combine that with the Senate being run by his fellow KY native, and the fact that he'd have the same letter by his name as the majority of two Houses of Congress, then it's an unprecedented opportunity to see what a Libertarian President might do. We've seen what mainstream Dems and Reps do: pretty much the same exact thing. Why not try something different for once in our lives? Why be so timid all the time?

(I'm not going to the Dark Side, so don't over-interpret this post) but if I were a voter in the next US presidential election I would seriously consider giving a vote to Paul for the reasons Z has laid out. Bush was a disaster and somehow Obama has managed to trump that Hillary (most likely next president) will just continue in the same disastrous vein. That being the case a genuine change (even if it isn't my man) would be a relief, and might actually demonstrate that change is possible (as Obama has singularly failed to do ).

What can I say, desperation makes for strange bedfellows!

u.

[Zarathustra]

Cool! Honestly, I don't agree with everything Paul says. I'm much more of a hawk than he is. His position on foreign policy is much more like Cail's ... but it's also much more like the anti-war, anti-Bush Left. In that regard, he'd be more like the 2008 Obama than what we got.

[Cybrweez]

I'd lean towards Paul for those reasons. I don't know much about him, and his dad might influence some of my thoughts on him (a little naive in foreign policy, and gold standard???). I would also be concerned, sometimes the Pauls live on the edge, maybe b/c they know they're on the edge? If decisions were actually up to them, what then?

But, it would appear, again from the little I know, that it gives a good chance for difference. As little as I knew about Obama, I knew he came up through Chicago dem politics, and you knew what that means. I don't know Paul's background.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Here is Project Vote Smart's search page for Rand Paul. From here you may investigate his voting record, his stated positions, his political history, etc.-- everything you would need to form an opinion about whether he is a candidate for whom you could vote. They even have research on his campaign contributions so you can find out who else is supporting him.

[Avatar]

If decisions were actually up to them, what then?

Well, decisions aren't really up to the pres are they? Would a 3rd party one have any effect at all? Wouldn't whichever party controlled the houses actually determine things then?

--A

[Hashi Lebwohl]

CiC decisions are left to the President...even though the House can slash the military budget whenever they want to. The President can also threaten a veto on any proposed legislation coming up for a vote; if sufficient support isn't already in place to override a veto then the bill may die.

We still have some checks and balances left, even if most people are ignoring them these days.

edit to add: from today's New York Times: "Has the 'Libertarian Moment' Finally Arrived? The article is a little lengthy so I will finish reading it later.

[SkurjMaster]

Dear Watchers,

The original purpose of this thread was to determine if those interested thought that we were being led to slaughter. I thought I would bring us back around to the initial question with the second, implicit, part.

Are we sheep?

If an absolute crash is not intended, at the very least I believe that 'a new world order' where some form of socialism reigns supreme is being fervently pursued. If a crash happens along the way, so much the better.

But still, are we sheep?

Purposeful or not, the people of this country, I as guilty as anyone, have pursued the acquisition of stuff to the exclusion of civic duty and awareness. We have become 'willingly ignorant.'

We are being led by the nose and a good many of us have stopped resisting.

[Zarathustra]

We're not sheep! We'll use this thread for whatever politicking we wish!





I have no problem with Hashi splitting off into my Rand Paul thread.

[ussusimiel]

If an absolute crash is not intended, at the very least I believe that 'a new world order' where some form of socialism reigns supreme is being fervently pursued. If a crash happens along the way, so much the better.

I'm not sure if it is as deliberate as that. We have been talking about something similar to this here:

• Our automated future and the human cost

The basic idea is that as our society changes the nature of work changes so that some form of 'welfare' payment becomes necessary, not because people are lazy and don't want to work (and not because there is some 'socialist conspiracy') but because there isn't any need for them to 'work' anymore.

Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) suggests that in an economy with a fiat currency (if there is enough productive capacity (be it automated or otherwise) to provide the goods that the economy needs) all that is required is sufficient consumption to use up the goods produced. Where the money to purchase those goods comes from doesn't matter and whatever deficit is left (large or small) can be made up by 'welfare' payments.*

Concerns about expanding government are a different matter and are not directly related to 'creeping socialism'. Those are genuine concerns and both the Republicans and the Democrats have been guilty of increasing the reach and powers of government. However, they are more likely to lead to a fascist situation than a socialist one.**

u.

* MMT demonstrates that concerns about the budget deficit are unwarranted because the government owes the money to itself and can always make more of it. So long as there is spare productive capacity even inflation is not an issue.

** As a 'liberal' I am always a bit perplexed at the dread fear of socialism that seems to infect Americans. I'm not sure what is imagined will happen. In Europe we have mostly socialist leaning governments and somehow we survive and don't feel oppressed or even put upon. Are people afraid that they'll have to learn French, recycle their waste, eat health foods and do yoga?! The horror!!!

[SoulBiter]

Are people afraid that they'll have to learn French

Now you have crossed the line!!! I refuse to learn French!!!

[Vraith]

** As a 'liberal' I am always a bit perplexed at the dread fear of socialism that seems to infect Americans. I'm not sure what is imagined will happen. In Europe we have mostly socialist leaning governments and somehow we survive and don't feel oppressed or even put upon. Are people afraid that they'll have to learn French, recycle their waste, eat health foods and do yoga?! The horror!!![/size]

though it's not quite as common/fashionable now...perhaps it became too cliche even for politicians [hard as that is to imagine]...the phrase "like Europe" is/has been one of the strongest perjorative terms one could apply to an idea/policy. [if one right of center...even for some centerish folk] ["like the French" is as strong or stronger, unless one is talking specifically about health-care. Then "like the U.K." is worse.] Were you unaware of that?
But more on-topic...
I don't think we're any more sheep-like than we've ever been. And any crash that comes [I'm not sure one will at all] has roots and powers that far precede O's faults and mistakes [which doesn't mean he hasn't contributed].
Really, the worst things O has done are things the right/Rep's...most of them...would applaud loudly if it wasn't a Dem doing them. And they're secretly gleeful and hoping for their chance to REALLY use those precedents/powers to the fullest.

[SkurjMaster]

** As a 'liberal' I am always a bit perplexed at the dread fear of socialism that seems to infect Americans. I'm not sure what is imagined will happen. In Europe we have mostly socialist leaning governments and somehow we survive and don't feel oppressed or even put upon. Are people afraid that they'll have to learn French, recycle their waste, eat health foods and do yoga?! The horror!!![/size]

though it's not quite as common/fashionable now...perhaps it became too cliche even for politicians [hard as that is to imagine]...the phrase "like Europe" is/has been one of the strongest perjorative terms one could apply to an idea/policy. [if one right of center...even for some centerish folk] ["like the French" is as strong or stronger, unless one is talking specifically about health-care. Then "like the U.K." is worse.] Were you unaware of that?
But more on-topic...
I don't think we're any more sheep-like than we've ever been. And any crash that comes [I'm not sure one will at all] has roots and powers that far precede O's faults and mistakes [which doesn't mean he hasn't contributed].
Really, the worst things O has done are things the right/Rep's...most of them...would applaud loudly if it wasn't a Dem doing them. And they're secretly gleeful and hoping for their chance to REALLY use those precedents/powers to the fullest.

Ussusimiel,

No disrespect intended, but the fact that you do not feel put upon by socialist-oriented leaders and elitist central governments is only proof, I think, that there is no cultural basis for any true individualism in Europe. Hillary Clinton (It Takes a Village) and Barack Obama (social justice, spread the wealth around) would be right at home there. A history of bowing to kings, queens, and other dictators will do that to a people. If that is what you collectively desire, then I guess that you should have it.

I hope we don't want to be 'like Europe.' I would like to think that we would turn around and try to be 'like the United States.' None of that will happen though unless we ditch the broken two-party system, ALL of the current set of politicians, set term limits, and become re-engaged in steering the ship, instead of passing it off to greedy, power mad elitists who think that they are gods among men.

[Orlion]

Yep, I guess if we have different views of "liberty" then that makes us sheep, huh?

Most people want to live their lives, and most are able to. Because we live in a society that involves other people living their own lives, there are conflicts of interest and those who are most "capable" (for whatever reason, money, power, skill, etc) get their way or a compromise is made. Welcome to life.

That does not mean there's this massive conspiracy to tear down the American dream by the Liberals to create a New World Order or by the Conservatives to create a Theological State. And if people just want to live their lives to their hearts' desires, that does not mean they are apathetic to all things political, just the petty shit that you mostly see nowadays (Gasp! Someone didn't say something exactly right! Where's that Malaysian Plane?)

[ussusimiel]

Ussusimiel,

No disrespect intended, but the fact that you do not feel put upon by socialist-oriented leaders and elitist central governments is only proof, I think, that there is no cultural basis for any true individualism in Europe. Hillary Clinton (It Takes a Village) and Barack Obama (social justice, spread the wealth around) would be right at home there. A history of bowing to kings, queens, and other dictators will do that to a people. If that is what you collectively desire, then I guess that you should have it....

While I don't take it personally (if I got upset everytime there was an implication that we Europeans were wussy-sheep-content-living-under-tyranny I wouldn't be able to function in the 'Tank for very long ) it is deeply disrespectful in its implications and seems, to me, to lack any understanding at all of what it is like to live in Europe.*

As I see it, this is actually a statement of a belief in the 'idea/dream' of the United States. There is an implied assumption that the only place in the world where it is possible to be 'truly' free is the US. The reason being that only in the US do the circumstances and culture pertain where 'freedom' can be properly and fully present.

I am presently thoroughly unconvinced that the concept of 'individuality' present in such thinking is the absolutely positive thing which it is automatically assumed to be. I am opened to be convinced about this, but my own experience and investigation of the idea (and the connection with 'ego' (see Freud and Lacan)) has led me to be profoundly suspicious (some unfree-European-questioning right there ) of anything that assumes that 'individuality' is not only an absolute good, but also the only basis for freedom. I am certainly coming more and more to understand the central importance of freedom, and in that understanding I am also coming to understand that 'individuality' (and 'ego') are more likely barriers to it rather than the source of it.

u.

* The implication that because one is European that they are incapable of being free, of thinking critically, of questioning things is strongly challenged by the most influential modern philosophers, many of whom are/were *gasp* French: Derrida, Foucault, Bordieu, Baudrillard, Deleuze)

[Hashi Lebwohl]

We are not sheep and we are not, to continue the analogy, being led to slaughter by people seeking to establish an all-powerful Socialist government. Instead, many of our fellow citizens are merely far too lazy and self-absorbed to worry too much about things. As long as the situation in this country doesn't get too bad then they are content with the status quo.

Why is this? It is because we haven't had to fight for anything in quite a while. Can you name the last real "grass roots" movement where we as a nation fought for necessary change? I can tell you--it hasn't happened since the end of the Vietnam War. Sure, some people fought for more minor changes in the 80s, the 90, the 00s, and even now but there has not been a widespread movement designed specifically to bring about a change which is desperately needed. People younger than me (I'll be 45 later this year) in general have no idea what it means to fight for something you need. Yes, some of them fought, bled, and died in Iraq or Afghanistan but those conflicts have been wastes--they weren't fought for anything other than the ridiculous notion that we could fight terror with guns.

Sheep? No. Sleepy children? Yes.