Breaking Bad

[Zarathustra]

Your legacy is still intact when someone copies your work ... especially if they're using your own formula, which you gave them. If Walt hadn't been found at the meth lab, and word got out that Jessie had been cooking lately, people could have concluded that Walt was still masterminding everything ... just as Badger and Skinny Pete concluded. The fact that Jessie (his former partner) was involved just sounds like franchise building ... expanding his empire for him.

I'm not sure if the specific product was his legacy, anyway. As he told Jessie, he wasn't in the meth business but the empire business. If you go by that definition, then he didn't retain his legacy, because he lost his empire long ago. I don't think blue meth was the sole thing that he wanted everyone to remember about him. After all, he was more than willing to teach people his recipe and his method. He liked being Heisenberg, not necessarily the guy who makes good blue meth. As he said to Skyler, it made him feel alive. I imagine he felt in control of his own destiny for a while ... unlimited. That's a powerful experience for a man facing his own imminent death. And no arrest or tarnishing his reputation could take that away from him. In fact, we have to ask: what was he going to do if he hadn't been shot? He expected the police. If that freak accident (getting shot) hadn't happened, he may have been convicted ... and he seemed perfectly okay with that.

[Cail]

Two points:

- For anyone other than a megalomaniac like Walt, I'd agree with your legacy point(s). But this is Walt, and if things aren't on his terms, they're worthless to him.

Yes, he offered to give his method away, but that was always his voice, and it served his ends.

- Hank was ready to die, and it was his plan all along. Had he not been shot, he probably would have run.

We can't know that of course, but we have 5 seasons worth of history showing us that Walt's out for Walt, and even when he's got good intentions, he generally does what's best for him.

Heisenberg and the blue meth product were his Gray Matter. It was his opportunity to be the best at something, and to have what he gave up when he took the buyout.

The fact that Jesse was making his product at a similar quality as he enraged him, and had it not been for Jesse's condition with the Nazis, he would have killed Jesse too.

But in the end, Walt (y'all have no idea how many times I've typed "Hal" writing these posts, Cranston will always be Hal to me) is an awful person who does a few decent things...Saves Jesse, gives Skyler the lotto ticket, leaves Holly at the firehouse....but those are all fixing things he screwed up.

At no point in the series is he a decent guy who does something awful.

[Cail]

In fact, we have to ask: what was he going to do if he hadn't been shot? He expected the police. If that freak accident (getting shot) hadn't happened, he may have been convicted ... and he seemed perfectly okay with that.

He would have done the same thing he did in the prior episode....Escape. He called the police on himself. Then his pride and ego got hurt when the Schwartzes made him feel insignificant. So he didn't kill them, he humbled them.

And then he was fine until he found out that Jesse and the Nazis were cooking his product and stealing his legacy. So he set out to kill them.

This is the pattern throughout the entire show.

[wayfriend]

I disagree that Lydia had to die because she was keeping a business going that "destroys lives."

Neither do I. (Which means you aren't disagreeing with anyone at all.) Lydia had to die because she was keeping Walt's meth-making machine alive, and this machine kept destroying the lives of Walt's family. Walt wasn't trying to save the world's drug users, he was trying to stop the specific meth-making machine he started. The one that kept going with his name attached to it. The one that would keep threatening his family after he died, because his name was attached to it. So Lydia, the Nazi's, and Todd all had to go. And Walt had to ensure his body was found at the lab, so that everyone would know that Walt's machine was ended and over. No one could ever again claim that Walter was making the blue meth.

Oh, and all those lives ruined by Walt's meth? Happened offscreen, so they just don't matter.

Let's treat it as a story, and not a commentary on anyone's morality. Stuff gets left out of stories because it doesn't fit, not because of a moral judgement.

The fact that the story didn't touch on what happened to all the meth he made is the single biggest clue you have about what the story is about. And Walter's final admission verifies the clue.

"I was really ... I was alive."

If you consider that this was spoken by a man who was facing his own mortality, you can see the significance.

The entire series was about a man who, facing death, found a way to feel alive. He was persuing life. The fact that it involved ruining lives is not a contradiction, it's irony.

The story ended when Walter finally confronted the cost of being alive. This is why he had to die.

And this is why the cops didn't catch him. Because it's a story about a man coming to terms with himself, not about society coming to terms with a man. It was about Walter confronting Walter.

[Zarathustra]

I disagree that Lydia had to die because she was keeping a business going that "destroys lives."

Neither do I. (Which means you aren't disagreeing with anyone at all.)

I was very clearly disagreeing with you, where you said this:

However, there were lots of other elements of justice in the ending. First, and foremost, Walter put an end to the business which kept on destroying lives even after he quit it. (Which is, as I see it, why Lydia had to die.) Not even the cops could have done that, but Walter did.

You clearly say that Lydia--as you see it--had to die, in order to put an end to the business which destroyed lives, even after he quit. If you didn't mean the meth users themselves, then which lives were you talking about? Which lives did Walt see his "machine" still destroying? He'd already made up his mind to take out the Nazi gang, before Skyler told him she was threatened. He didn't know about Jessie's ex-girlfriend. So if it was unclear which lives you were talking about here, maybe that's because there couldn't possibly have been any other lives besides the meth users?

Lydia had to die because she was keeping Walt's meth-making machine alive, and this machine kept destroying the lives of Walt's family.

Just because Lydia continues to make meth doesn't mean that it's Walt's machine anymore. He didn't invent Lydia or her source. He *stole* her from Guss's "machine." Once all the people who know how to use his formula/method are dead (Todd) or out of business (Jessie), then his "machine" is also dead, no matter which previous business partner decides to continue in the meth business. That's their business. He can't claim ownership of people who were already in the meth business before he was. Therefore, there is no justice in this at all, even by this bizarre definition.

If his goal was something noble like justice (by stopping his "machine" from destroying lives), killing or stopping Jessie/Todd would have been sufficient. However, I don't buy the idea that he was doing anything other than revenge. He was getting even with people who double-crossed him, not stopping previous business partners from destroying lives.

Walt wasn't trying to save the world's drug users, he was trying to stop the specific meth-making machine he started. The one that kept going with his name attached to it. The one that would keep threatening his family after he died, because his name was attached to it. So Lydia, the Nazi's, and Todd all had to go. And Walt had to ensure his body was found at the lab, so that everyone would know that Walt's machine was ended and over. No one could ever again claim that Walter was making the blue meth.

Well, his body could have been found anywhere, and people would know that he wasn't making the blue meth. Also, as I said above, he didn't know that his family was being threatened until talking to Skyler, a time at which he'd already decided to take out the gang. Given the fact that the gang was supposed to kill Jessie, and he realizes that Jessie is alive via the existence of blue meth, and he tells Jack that he "still owes him Pinkman," it seems his primary concern was revenge for being screwed ... both by Pinkman and the gang. If there was anything else at all in this, it certainly wasn't on the screen or in the script, AFAICT. That's not to say it's a bad interpretation, it's just not necessitated by the show, or backed up by any evidence from the show.

The next quote you attribute to me, but it was written by Cail.

Oh, and all those lives ruined by Walt's meth? Happened offscreen, so they just don't matter.

Let's treat it as a story, and not a commentary on anyone's morality. Stuff gets left out of stories because it doesn't fit, not because of a moral judgement.

The fact that the story didn't touch on what happened to all the meth he made is the single biggest clue you have about what the story is about. And Walter's final admission verifies the clue.

"I was really ... I was alive."

If you consider that this was spoken by a man who was facing his own mortality, you can see the significance.

The entire series was about a man who, facing death, found a way to feel alive. He was persuing life. The fact that it involved ruining lives is not a contradiction, it's irony.

The story ended when Walter finally confronted the cost of being alive. This is why he had to die.

And this is why the cops didn't catch him. Because it's a story about a man coming to terms with himself, not about society coming to terms with a man. It was about Walter confronting Walter.

I agree that this was about a man facing death, and found a way to feel alive. However, it was also very much about his effect upon society (his family, friends), and their reactions to his choices. How they came to terms with him defines their stories.

So this show was very much a commentary on a man's morality. It's called Breaking Bad. It clearly, unambiguously portrayed the ruin and degredation of Walt's choices in the lives he destroyed. No, not all the meth users, but people even more important to him. So I disagree with both you and Cail: it's certainly a morality tale, and it certainly showed that "those lives" mattered. Not all of the meth users were off-screen. Remember the zombie-like people at Jessie's grief parties? Remember the innocent children caught in the cross-fire? I think we got enough of a picture of this "background" destruction, in addition to the immediate fallout in his own social circle.

[Cail]

The fact that the story didn't touch on what happened to all the meth he made is the single biggest clue you have about what the story is about. And Walter's final admission verifies the clue.

"I was really ... I was alive."

If you consider that this was spoken by a man who was facing his own mortality, you can see the significance.

The entire series was about a man who, facing death, found a way to feel alive. He was persuing life. The fact that it involved ruining lives is not a contradiction, it's irony.

The story ended when Walter finally confronted the cost of being alive. This is why he had to die.

And this is why the cops didn't catch him. Because it's a story about a man coming to terms with himself, not about society coming to terms with a man. It was about Walter confronting Walter.

OK, this makes sense. If this is what you believe the series to be about, then I understand how you could find the ending satisfying.

Respectfully, I disagree with that (as does the Breaking Bad wiki, FWIW). I think Gilligan & company made a far deeper, richer story than that. It's a story about hubris, and how it poisons a man's soul. Meth is allegorical, as Walt creates something that destroys people as surely as his hubris destroys him.

Gray Matter gives us a clear picture of who Walt is, but it does so after the producers have set the "Walt-as-everyman" hook.

[Zarathustra]

Cail, I agree with you that the writers/producers have made fairly explicit statements about the meaning of the show and their intentions ... statements which contradict much here. (Again, that's not to say anyone's interpretation is absolutely wrong, it's just different than the writers' intent.)

The first quote on the wiki site you've given sums it all up:

"It was my hard work. My research. And you and Elliott made millions off it."

That's his motivation, why he wants to build an empire. He felt screwed out of the reward for his genius, his work. And that's exactly what pisses him off once he learns the blue meth is still being made. It has nothing to do with justice for lives still being destroyed in his name, but rather the same exact motivation which has pushed him all along: others getting credit for his work.

He died in the lab because the writers wanted him to be surrounded by the product of his genius, what he loved, not because he wanted to send a message that he was no longer destroying lives due to being permanently out of business. It's a evil-emporer enjoying one last moment with his greatest creation, his empire. That's why the music was happy at the end.

[Cail]

Cail, I agree with you that the writers/producers have made fairly explicit statements about the meaning of the show and their intentions ... statements which contradict much here. (Again, that's not to say anyone's interpretation is absolutely wrong, it's just different than the writers' intent.)

The first quote on the wiki site you've given sums it all up:

"It was my hard work. My research. And you and Elliott made millions off it."

That's his motivation, why he wants to build an empire. He felt screwed out of the reward for his genius, his work. And that's exactly what pisses him off once he learns the blue meth is still being made. It has nothing to do with justice for lives still being destroyed in his name, but rather the same exact motivation which has pushed him all along: others getting credit for his work.

He died in the lab because the writers wanted him to be surrounded by the product of his genius, what he loved, not because he wanted to send a message that he was no longer destroying lives due to being permanently out of business. It's a evil-emporer enjoying one last moment with his greatest creation, his empire. That's why the music was happy at the end.

I must have given the impression that I believed Walt gave a damn about the lives he'd ruined. I have no such belief. Walt gave a shit about no one but himself. His empire and his legacy were the only things that mattered to him.

The only way the final episode works for me is with a shot of Walt frozen to death in the Volvo just before the credits. Everything from the keys magically falling from Heaven forward was an An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge-type death-dream.

[Zarathustra]

Cail, my comments in the last post were more in agreement with you than disagreement. I don't think you're saying he gives a shit about the lives he destroyed. I was continuing the points I'd made in my previous post, arguing against WF's justice interpretation.

[Cail]

Ah, gotcha.

BTW, Lydia had to die because she was a threat to Walt's family. No more, no less.

[wayfriend]

Respectfully, I disagree with that (as does the Breaking Bad wiki, FWIW). I think Gilligan & company made a far deeper, richer story than that. It's a story about hubris, and how it poisons a man's soul. Meth is allegorical, as Walt creates something that destroys people as surely as his hubris destroys him.

I don't see those things as mutually exclusive. Surely, Walter loved cooking because success, prestige, power, control, and ultimately validation provided what he needed, what he lacked, and what he felt Gray Matter had screwed him out of. It made him feel alive, in what would otherwise be a mundane mid-life-crisis sort of way. And it was hubris which led him to believe that reaching for these things was possible, safe, and ultimately quittable. Hubris isn't a motive, it's what undermines your judgement about your motive.

And yes, the tradegy/irony of the situation was that he ruined lives by persuing his need to be alive. So ruining lives is part of the story, of course. But as Walter wasn't a wake-up-in-the-morning-and-set-out-to-ruin-a-life kind of guy, the motive for doing so (even accidently, even hubristically) is also part of the story. Why did Walter turn a blind eye and/or discount the dangers of ruined lives? Was he just greedy? Was he just power-hungry? No. He told is it was because he liked it because it made him feel alive. What made him blind and/or arrogant was his need to feel alive, at a time when he was 50 years old and not looking like he was gonna see 51.

[Cail]

Again, I think that's just too simplistic. If he'd wanted to feel alive, he could have gone skydiving. Yes, he certainly felt alive as a meth kingpin and empire builder, but his pride was hurt, and that hurt pride is what motivated everything he did.

While he may have initially intended to cook until he had enough money for his family, then quit, I don't think he ever had that in him. It was always about "showing them". Walt, at his core, was always a petty man.

He may not have been a wake-up-in-the-morning-and-set-out-to-ruin-a-life kind of guy, but he was sociopathic enough not to care about the consequences of what he did. And he did what he did so that he could have the success he feels he was cheated out of by Gray Matter (never mind that it was his own fault, Walt isn't big on critical introspection).

In truth, it's the story of his self-actualization as a way of stroking his ego and/or nursing his pride. Again, hubris.

I think reducing it to Walt just wanting to feel alive sells the story short, just as reducing The Old Man and the Sea to a story about a bad day's fishing does.

[Zarathustra]

Yes, taking one line from the final episode and saying, "That's the point," doesn't do this show justice. (I should have avoiding saying "sums it all up" with the quote I provided, too.)

Walt's motivations are complex. There really was a part of him that wanted to give his family an inheritance, security, etc. There really was a part of him that feared his looming mortality. There really was a part of him that could not accept his personal ambitions--his potential as a scientist--remaining unfulfilled. So there's at least three motivations. Ultimately, he may have shifted his emphasis from one to the other, using the family motivation as the initial impetus, which then faded to more of an excuse, but he still wanted his son to have that money, he still wanted to feel alive, and he still wanted his personal potential to have been realized. All these are present right up until the very end.

Now, one's mortality can affect all these issues by making one's angst over them even stronger. But then again, all these issues can do the same thing to our angst over death. They all feed into each other: the sense of responsibility (to family) not being met, the sense of personal potential being wasted or stolen. These are regrets one would carry to one's deathbed, making one's passing away all the more difficult to accept if they're not fulfilled.

So "feeling alive" could mean just as many things: feeling like a man who can provide for his family, feeling like a man who can fulfill his dreams, who can win the acknowledgement of his peers and those who betrayed him, etc. And it's true that this is--in the end--for oneself. So when he says, "I did it for me," there's no contradiction.

For Walt, all the motivations got out of balance. That's where hubis comes in. Because he thought he was capable of so much more, and robbed of so much, he wouldn't stop until he got paid what he was worth. And since his time was limited, he decided to make up for a lifetime of falling short in the time left to him. That meant there could be no limits to what he'd allow himself to do, morally.

So if you want to look at him with a slightly sympathetic eye, you could say that it's more about how death and betrayal can warp our natural, positive motives like personal ambition and family. There's no evidence that Walt would have done anything evil if his genius had not suffered the dual obstacles of stolen greatness and stolen time. These are issues we must all deal with, in the end: our finitude, both temporally and in terms of achievement. We can only accomplish so much, and only live so long.

Perhaps if Walt had found a way to feel alive prior to his diagnosis--if he'd done something else besides being a school teacher--he may not have reacted so drastically to these facts that we must all face.

[Cail]

Good summary.

I think in one respect Walt was an Everyman. He gave up on his dreams and settled. The cancer was the final slap to his face. So with limited time, and nearly 18 years of resentment built up, he set out to fulfill what he thought was his destiny. Everything else ceased to be important to him (though his family made for a great justification). In a sense, he became Hile Troy without Troy's realization that he'd become Icarus.

Walt died content, knowing that his legacy as Heisenburg was intact. He didn't turn himself in to save his family because it was never about them.

[I'm Murrin]

Did the gang destroy Jesse's confession tape?

[Akasri]

Not that I saw. They were watching it at one point, but not sure they ever showed it after that.

[I'm Murrin]

Given that several months passed and the tape incriminated one of them in the murder of a child, it should probably be assumed that they destroyed it at some point, I guess. I just couldn't remember if they'd said they were going to in the episode.

[Akasri]

I'm not so sure they cared. If anyone came after them, they weren't going to be taken alive. What they could or couldn't be prosecuted for probably wasn't that high on their watch list

[StevieG]

I have just finished watching all 5 seasons in the last couple of months. It has been an incredible experience, and by far the best tv series I have seen. The thing that I found most satisfying was that almost all events that transpired were plausible. There was a lot of luck in some instances, and a lot of intelligence also. Probably the scene I had most trouble believing was the final showdown in S5 - that was entirely lucky really, to knock off virtually everyone in that way. Being able to park the car where he wanted to, no searching of the vehicle, everyone all in the same room or at least in the firing line etc.

Overall though, this was masterful storytelling imo. I watched the final 4 episodes in one night because it was impossible to stop watching. The absolute turning point from Walt's point of view was in the Ozymandias episode, when he realised that he actually wasn't in control, wasn't Heisenberg, and there was no way he could save Hank. "Uncle" Jack looked at him without respect.

[Cambo]

So this show has been hailed as one of the best TV shows of all time, mentioned in the same breath as The Wire and The Sopranos.

I think it deserves every bit of praise it got. It featured some of the finest acting I've seen on screen, big or small. The plot and characters gripped me like few shows that have come before it. The narrative came to an end at a fitting place, without needlessly dragging the story out.

IMO, it's damn near perfect.

Who else has watched?