Can an atheist experience 'the spiritual'.

[Dondarion]

Fist and Faith:

I wouldn't say the good outweighs the crimes.

Of course the good outweighs the crimes. It's what the good represents that makes it so. The "good" resulting from faith, et.al., is not a thing that comes from man. It is a gift that makes all that we have that is good possible. Believers understand that God is the source of all that is good. Man commits crime and wrongs against nature and humanity, not God. And so I would disagree. Without faith, man is lost. Only despair, destruction, greed, selfishness, et.al., remain, unchecked by humility, love, selflessness, caring, conversion of the heart. Faith is hope in what we believe, but cannot see, but cannot ignore must be, based on the signs and wonders of our world, the experiences and traditions passed down, the miracles and revelations, and God at work in our world in undeniable ways. And thank God, we can choose to act on that faith, in good ways. Yes, there have been many abuses, but in totality, not just in the major events in world history, but in all the little things nobody ever talks about, faith has done great good in our world. Crime is the human answer when there is no hope, when a God who is good is rejected, and we are left with nothing but each other in a survival of the fittest mentality. Very dangerous. At Christmas, we stop and recognize that pure goodness came into our world to dwell among us (the name 'Jesus' means God among us), to light our way, to bring us out of ourselves and toward a better way, the only way where good can overcome evil, where if we but listen and respond, maybe crime would be no more.

[Wildling]

To try and drag things back on topic here ...

My thought is that an atheist has every ability to experience or perceive the spiritual that a faithful adherent to any given religion has. It's how that person interprets it and what that person does with the experience that differs.

A believer will experience it and be strengthened in his/her belief. Or, I suppose it's possible that the experience sends them off in the direction of a different faith. The atheist will either convert to belief or will explain it as something else (like a hallucination or mental breakdown or something).

Which is right? I dunno. My guess is it depends on the person, their needs at the time, mental state, previous religious teachings, feelings toward those teachings, etc. But I do firmly believe that all are able to have the same experience.

Of course the good outweighs the crimes. It's what the good represents that makes it so. The "good" resulting from faith, et.al., is not a thing that comes from man. It is a gift that makes all that we have that is good possible. Believers understand that God is the source of all that is good. Man commits crime and wrongs against nature and humanity, not God. And so I would disagree. Without faith, man is lost. Only despair, destruction, greed, selfishness, et.al., remain, unchecked by humility, love, selflessness, caring, conversion of the heart. Faith is hope in what we believe, but cannot see, but cannot ignore must be, based on the signs and wonders of our world, the experiences and traditions passed down, the miracles and revelations, and God at work in our world in undeniable ways. And thank God, we can choose to act on that faith, in good ways. Yes, there have been many abuses, but in totality, not just in the major events in world history, but in all the little things nobody ever talks about, faith has done great good in our world. Crime is the human answer when there is no hope, when a God who is good is rejected, and we are left with nothing but each other in a survival of the fittest mentality. Very dangerous. At Christmas, we stop and recognize that pure goodness came into our world to dwell among us (the name 'Jesus' means God among us), to light our way, to bring us out of ourselves and toward a better way, the only way where good can overcome evil, where if we but listen and respond, maybe crime would be no more.

I would strongly disagree with the bolded part. All of those things are present in each of us, to greater or lesser degrees. Both the good (compassion, caring) and the bad (greed, despair). It's not faith in any particular higher power that brings it out. If it were, priesthoods of various faiths would all be enormously caring, generous souls who wouldn't do any ill to anyone and spend all day every day helping the sick get better and finding homes for the homeless.. But, in the Catholic church are various scandals, not the least of which is the abuse of young boys for sexual gratification. Some of the Imams and higher levels of Islam are open advocates of war against those they don't agree with. How long have people of every conceivable faith, all believing in their hearts that they were right and all others were wrong, fought with each other?

At the same time, people who care little about religion of any type are out ministering to the sick, injured, and poor. They are doctors, psychiatrists, nurses, and many other professions that aren't populated only by the most faithful of Christians. Has faith led them to this? No. Inborn compassion did. Not God, but man.

I'm not going to put down your faith, as it is apparently quite strong. If that path works for you, then good. Follow it. Let it lead you to be the best you can. But don't discount people by themselves. Just because a person doesn't believe in a god (or gods) doesn't mean that they have no compassion or love.

[Avatar]

Agree with Wildling. Humility, love, selflessness and caring can all exist in the absence of faith. And all those negative things can exist in its presence.

I have no faith, and I'm totally fine with it. I'm no more desperate, destructive or greedy than the next man, and less than some no doubt.

In terms of other's faith...my response is "whatever gets you through the day is all right." As long as you're not harming other people.

--A

[Dondarion]

Wilding wrote:

I would strongly disagree with the bolded part. All of those things are present in each of us, to greater or lesser degrees. Both the good (compassion, caring) and the bad (greed, despair). It's not faith in any particular higher power that brings it out. If it were, priesthoods of various faiths would all be enormously caring, generous souls who wouldn't do any ill to anyone and spend all day every day helping the sick get better and finding homes for the homeless.. But, in the Catholic church are various scandals, not the least of which is the abuse of young boys for sexual gratification. Some of the Imams and higher levels of Islam are open advocates of war against those they don't agree with. How long have people of every conceivable faith, all believing in their hearts that they were right and all others were wrong, fought with each other?

You miss my point, and it's too bad when we use these opportunities for discourse to take shots at priests and the catholic church for its past sins (which we of the flock acknowledge over and over, live with the ramifications each and every day, and are so very saddened and ashamed by them). The vast vast vast majority of priests are remarkable, kind, giving and caring people who administer to the deepest needs of people and families. They understand who their great mentor and teacher was/is, and they honor that in everything they are about. Just be around it and observe for awhile, watch them in action, and you will see. We must not generalize and judge all by the horrible mistakes and wrongs of some.

Anyway, the ability to do good and bad is of course present in each of us. We are the product of our maker, so says the believer, and so we are capable of great kindness and compassion. But it is not we ourselves who make this possible. It is a source outside ourselves, a source that is all good and loves his creation, so the faithful believe. Whether you are an atheist or a theist, the believer’s tenet is that all are made in God’s image and likeness (he doesn’t pick and choose), and so we come with that spark of human kindness. But, because we are human, we have the ability to reject the source of that goodness, and so we are apt to sin against each other, committing great wrongs that we might not commit had we not so rejected. These wrongs can be committed by anyone, believer or non. It is a choice we make. When we say we believe, and yet still do a great harm to another (molestation example), we are even more accountable, imho. When we say we don’t believe, and yet do great goods, we are moving in cooperation with what God has endowed in us, whether we realize it or not. When a believer says “we are nothing without God”, he does not mean to imply non-believers are not capable of goodness, rather that God is still the source of that goodness, and without that source, we would be nothing, capable of nothing, and for that matter, we wouldn’t even be here.

[Wildling]

Wilding wrote:

I would strongly disagree with the bolded part. All of those things are present in each of us, to greater or lesser degrees. Both the good (compassion, caring) and the bad (greed, despair). It's not faith in any particular higher power that brings it out. If it were, priesthoods of various faiths would all be enormously caring, generous souls who wouldn't do any ill to anyone and spend all day every day helping the sick get better and finding homes for the homeless.. But, in the Catholic church are various scandals, not the least of which is the abuse of young boys for sexual gratification. Some of the Imams and higher levels of Islam are open advocates of war against those they don't agree with. How long have people of every conceivable faith, all believing in their hearts that they were right and all others were wrong, fought with each other?

You miss my point, and it's too bad when we use these opportunities for discourse to take shots at priests and the catholic church for its past sins (which we of the flock acknowledge over and over, live with the ramifications each and every day, and are so very saddened and ashamed by them). The vast vast vast majority of priests are remarkable, kind, giving and caring people who administer to the deepest needs of people and families. They understand who their great mentor and teacher was/is, and they honor that in everything they are about. Just be around it and observe for awhile, watch them in action, and you will see. We must not generalize and judge all by the horrible mistakes and wrongs of some.

Anyway, the ability to do good and bad is of course present in each of us. We are the product of our maker, so says the believer, and so we are capable of great kindness and compassion. But it is not we ourselves who make this possible. It is a source outside ourselves, a source that is all good and loves his creation, so the faithful believe. Whether you are an atheist or a theist, the believer’s tenet is that all are made in God’s image and likeness (he doesn’t pick and choose), and so we come with that spark of human kindness. But, because we are human, we have the ability to reject the source of that goodness, and so we are apt to sin against each other, committing great wrongs that we might not commit had we not so rejected. These wrongs can be committed by anyone, believer or non. It is a choice we make. When we say we believe, and yet still do a great harm to another (molestation example), we are even more accountable, imho. When we say we don’t believe, and yet do great goods, we are moving in cooperation with what God has endowed in us, whether we realize it or not. When a believer says “we are nothing without God”, he does not mean to imply non-believers are not capable of goodness, rather that God is still the source of that goodness, and without that source, we would be nothing, capable of nothing, and for that matter, we wouldn’t even be here.

That's going to be a disagreement between us. If I'm reading your words right you believe that all comes from God. I don't believe that. I believe that even were there no God still would these urges toward good deeds exist because it is not God that put them there in the first place.

Ultimately, there's no way to prove either position unless God descends from the heavens and has a Q&A session.

[Dondarion]

Wilding wrote:

Ultimately, there's no way to prove either position unless God descends from the heavens and has a Q&A session.

Well, you know what my response to that is....He already came to do just that. It's what is being celebrated tomorrow. And then man thanked him for it by killing him. But it was turned to greater good, so that we don't have to feel all alone in this world, and we can have a new hope that transcends this life and so act accordingly in all that we do, and that's the kind of good I am talking about.

[Savor Dam]

Ultimately, there's no way to prove either position unless God descends from the heavens and has a Q&A session.

Spoiler

Therein lies the plot arc of a series of urban fantasy novels by our own aliantha.

[Wildling]

Ultimately, there's no way to prove either position unless God descends from the heavens and has a Q&A session.

Spoiler

Therein lies the plot arc of a series of urban fantasy novels by our own aliantha.

Well now, I was unaware of this. Are they available someplace?

[Avatar]

Not only available but on special for the next 3 days at Amazon: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00GNTU ... g=12169-20

(Right series, right? )

--A

[aliantha]

Yup, that's the one. And thanks for the plug, guys.

[Savor Dam]

Just part of the service of being your "street team", ali.

Everyone should benefit from the Sage advice therein...

[Wildling]

Done, bought, and installed on the iPad.

Might take a while to get through it though. I don't have a lot of time lately for sitting down and reading stuff, which is why I've been doing audiobooks.

[aliantha]

Thank you, Wildling! I haven't taken the plunge into audio books yet. Maybe this year....

[Wildling]

Thank you, Wildling! I haven't taken the plunge into audio books yet. Maybe this year....

All I can say, from the listener point of view, is make sure you get a good person to read it. The wrong reader can kill a good story and a good reader can make a boring story pretty good.

[aliantha]

Thank you, Wildling! I haven't taken the plunge into audio books yet. Maybe this year....

All I can say, from the listener point of view, is make sure you get a good person to read it. The wrong reader can kill a good story and a good reader can make a boring story pretty good.

Yup. I keep thinking maybe I'll do it myself. And then I think of the time that would be involved -- it's not like you just flip on the mic and read it cover to cover -- and then I find other things to do.

[Avatar]

Hey, I know a guy on G+ who might make a good reader. He hasn't ever done it before, but he's got an amazing voice, and I know he's looking for stuff to do, so you can probably get a good rate. Lemme know if you want me to hook you up with him.

--A

[peter]

The voice of the reader will be sooo important. I worked in a call center with a girl who had a voice like pouring honey. She could sell anything, especially I'm ashamed to say, to men !

Anyway, for those who, like me, enjoy a friendly rivalry between the spiritual and rational sides of thier nature, I quote from the opening pages of a wonderfull book I have discovered by Christopher Potter, How To Make A Human-Being, to show that all is well - we are not alone.

Ever since Newton's time, when billiards was in vogue, science has tried to reduce the world to balls hitting one another; billiard ball atoms, billiard ball planets, billiard ball stars. for those of us who have fought shy of games ever since schooldays, it is sometimes hard to accept that ball-games really are the be all and end all of existance. Even on those days when I know [or is it fear?] that all there is can be reduced to particles, I am dispirited. I feel as I did at school; I know that materealism is the manlier choice, but it isn't me.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Ultimately, there's no way to prove either position unless God descends from the heavens and has a Q&A session.

Too late; already happened man.
You missed the event.
Now what u gonna do?

Actually, there might still be some booze left over from the event.
Acts 2:13

Edit: added second pp to avoid factual inaccuracy.

[Zarathustra]

Anyway, for those who, like me, enjoy a friendly rivalry between the spiritual and rational sides of thier nature, I quote from the opening pages of a wonderfull book I have discovered by Christopher Potter, How To Make A Human-Being, to show that all is well - we are not alone.

Ever since Newton's time, when billiards was in vogue, science has tried to reduce the world to balls hitting one another; billiard ball atoms, billiard ball planets, billiard ball stars. for those of us who have fought shy of games ever since schooldays, it is sometimes hard to accept that ball-games really are the be all and end all of existance. Even on those days when I know [or is it fear?] that all there is can be reduced to particles, I am dispirited. I feel as I did at school; I know that materealism is the manlier choice, but it isn't me.

You don't have to be a strict materialist in order to foster your rational side, nor to reject spirit. There is also neutral monism. Matter is largely a misleading idea we create out of our "macro" perspective. Scientists have given up the "billiard ball" conception of reality for nearly 100 years.

[aliantha]

Hey, I know a guy on G+ who might make a good reader. He hasn't ever done it before, but he's got an amazing voice, and I know he's looking for stuff to do, so you can probably get a good rate. Lemme know if you want me to hook you up with him.

--A

I'll keep it in mind, Av -- thanks! A guy might work for the Land, Sea, Sky books. The Pipe Woman Chronicles are all in first person, so I'd need a woman for those.