Kevin's Watch

SoulBiter wrote:

Esmer wrote:it's called placing your desire above another's, that your wishes are more important than mine, that somehow you know whats best for me more than I do. It doesn't matter what you think, if I request you don't do something on my behalf then you simply shouldn't do it. It's called Respect.

I think its called.. being sensitive about something that, to you, is invisible. However.. what if the one doing the praying is correct in his beliefs (he or she has it right) and really does know whats best? Does your logic still hold true?

SoulBiter wrote:...if the praying isnt having an effect on you...

If Jesus came to me and said: "I'm here to save your soul", and I said: "No thank you", He, by acknowledging my place and power in this universe as an individual, would respect my wishes. It is MY choice to be saved, not His. And you seem to be forwarding your opinion on the basis/belief that prayers do not work....there are those of us here that know first hand the tangible, visible and consequential effects of the power of true prayer....

Nietzsche wrote:The reverse side of Christian compassion for the suffering of one's neighbor is a profound suspicion of all the joy of one's neighbor, of his joy in all that he wants to do and can.

Nietzsche wrote:Christianity came into existence in order to lighten the heart; but now it has first to burden the heart so as afterwards to be able to lighten it.

Esmer wrote:

SoulBiter wrote:...if the praying isnt having an effect on you...

If Jesus came to me and said: "I'm here to save your soul", and I said: "No thank you", He, by acknowledging my place and power in this universe as an individual, would respect my wishes. It is MY choice to be saved, not His. And you seem to be forwarding your opinion on the basis/belief that prayers do not work....there are those of us here that know first hand the tangible, visible and consequential effects of the power of true prayer....

I never said one way or the other whether I believe that prayer works or not. I pulled a hypothetical situation out of thin air. You ascribed that my position and or opinion is based on the basis/belief that prayers do not work. However you have now stated that you do beleive in the power of true prayer.

Now as to your position as to whether Jesus would save your soul if you asked him not to. In my opinion he would respect your wishes but still pray for you. "Father forgive them , they know not what they do" is in essense a prayer for those that didnt want or ask for that prayer. That prayer would be given in his certain belief in the power of prayer and in the hopes that it would be enough to change your mind at some future date while there was still time. But yes.. it would still be your choice as to whether you would accept having your soul saved.

If I was digging a hole with a bent straw, and you showed up with a backhoe, and asked me if I would like some help, and I said no, would you still "help" me?

Esmer wrote:If I was digging a hole with a bent straw, and you showed up with a backhoe, and asked me if I would like some help, and I said no, would you still "help" me?

Probably not because the consequences of that action are not as permanent. However if I saw you trying to jump off a bridge or building to your death or trying to end your existance in some manner then yes, I would try to stop you.

and if I believed I was changing my existence and not ending it, would you not be interfering, willfully and arrogantly, with my wishes and choices? What if I was just about to fly? You may have well just killed me. Why can you not allow a man to live, or die, due to the consequences of his choices and desires?

Esmer with gun to his head

SB: Stop! don't do it!

Esmer: (points gun at SB) Whatup foo?

SB: I'm going to stop you!

Esmer: (calculates mathematical statistical probability of completing death mission with new SB data, concludes only 100% elimination of SB will result in 100% mission success) Bang! (shoots SB in head, points gun at own head)Bang!

God: SB, what the heck were you thinking? now you're both dead!

SB: sorry, I was just doing what I thought was best....

God: Well, look at you now! You're dead, foo! And Esmer!? WTF?

Esmer: Well, this seems to be the only way to get to talk to you, and he was getting in the way, so.....

Esmer wrote:and if I believed I was changing my existence and not ending it, would you not be interfering, willfully and arrogantly, with my wishes and choices? What if I was just about to fly? You may have well just killed me. Why can you not allow a man to live, or die, due to the consequences of his choices and desires?

If humans were to go with the idea or belief (or non-belief) that says "well I can never interfere in anything because that is his/her choice and its only my arrogance that makes me think different," the result would be total anarchy. Someone has to think they know whats best for others. Isnt that where laws come from?

We can go at this kind of analogy for the next ten years and never get anywhere. It goes back to what you believe and whether anything that I do that affects you without your approval or perhaps with your dis-approval is right. I dont know. I do know that many religions believe that you must pray for those that dont believe the way you do and that to not do so goes against those fundamental beliefs. Does that make that person arrogant? Maybe. Does that make the actual belief arrogant.... Perhaps but it depends on whether it fits the definition of arrogance. However if my religion requires that I pray for others even if they dont want me to and I dont do that, then dont I place my own immortal soul in jeapordy?

if someone specifically asks you not to do something and you do it anyway, however positive your intentions are, you are creating a negative energetic event by opposing the will of another. How's that in a nutshell? I don't know how much more succintly I can put it than that.

Esmer wrote:if someone specifically asks you not to do something and you do it anyway, however positive your intentions are, you are creating a negative energetic event by opposing the will of another. How's that in a nutshell? I don't know how much more succintly I can put it than that.

However if not doing thats gonna send my soul to Hell..... then enjoy the negative energetic event cause its coming your way

"Sorry, but my soul was built with prayer absorbing crumple zones"

and if I believed I was changing my existence and not ending it, would you not be interfering, willfully and arrogantly, with my wishes and choices? What if I was just about to fly? You may have well just killed me. Why can you not allow a man to live, or die, due to the consequences of his choices and desires?

Esmer with gun to his head

SB: Stop! don't do it!

Esmer: (points gun at SB) Whatup foo?

SB: I'm going to stop you!

Esmer: (calculates mathematical statistical probability of completing death mission with new SB data, concludes only 100% elimination of SB will result in 100% mission success) Bang! (shoots SB in head, points gun at own head)Bang!

Es, I don't believe everyone is in their own personal sphere of self and property and that we are free to do whatever we want so long as we do not directly infringe on anyone else's sphere. I don't believe everyone is an island. It's not an accurate picture of reality. Everything we do affects other people. I like you and wouldn't want to see you dead. Your being dead would negatively affect me. As such, there's no way I would let you kill yourself, regardless of your motivations for doing so, without making every attempt to stop you-exhausting every avenue. Even those that run counter to your specific wishes.

Ofcourse, if you could convince me that there was something else after this life I might consider joining you in suicide--but you'd have to go first.

SoulBiter,

the result would be total anarchy. Someone has to think they know whats best for others. Isnt that where laws come from?

True, but you are speaking in purely practical terms. Religiosity is abstract (whether you believe in the "power of prayer or not"). There's a very concrete difference between interference in the actions of others, and trying to interfere with their systems of belief.

edit: And you're all getting hung up on the idea that the prayers themselves are arrogant. Not so. It has nothing to do with the action, nor even the intent, but rather, the sentiment: I am praying for you because your faith is deficient. I can call it "sharing," I can say that all religions are fundamentally the same, but all of this is meaningless in the face of the underlying message that salvation can be achieved, at least ideally, in one way. That one way happens to not be yours, so I will pray for your soul. That is arrogance.

Cybrweez wrote:

Hmm, good point, are you trying to convert me to your way of thinking?

Not at all, simply trying to elaborate on what I believe, because it seemed to be getting confused.

Cybrweez wrote: EDIT: and I think that other religions are wrong. I think the Bible teaches Jesus is the only way to heaven, so if the difference is in the details, the details matter. Is that arrogant? Maybe. Do you think its arrogant, or wrong? Well then, you're arrogant too. So, I think this word arrogant is no longer a negative thing, but rather, used as a tool in debate to try to paint someone as negative, and put them on the defensive.

It's like the statement, "there is no absolute truth". Really, is that absolutely true?

Or even better, "you're intolerant." That statement itself is intolerant, which means you are as well, which means, SO WHAT?? Everyone is intolerant!

I specifically said that I don't have a problem with people who A)Think absolutely that they're right or B)Think absolutely that everyone else is wrong.

I have a problem with people who willfully FORCE their beliefs on another, be it in pamphlet form or in the guise of prayers. I think we should all respect each other enough to allow us to come to our own decisions.

That's not to say you should elaborate on your beliefs to another, but I think it shouldn't be done unless it is in a manner that is not to convert, but to explain or if it was specifically asked for to help convert the person asking.

SoulBiter wrote: Now as to your position as to whether Jesus would save your soul if you asked him not to. In my opinion he would respect your wishes but still pray for you. "Father forgive them , they know not what they do" is in essense a prayer for those that didnt want or ask for that prayer. That prayer would be given in his certain belief in the power of prayer and in the hopes that it would be enough to change your mind at some future date while there was still time. But yes.. it would still be your choice as to whether you would accept having your soul saved.

If someone did not truly believe that their prayer would work I would have no problem with them praying for me. (But then, whats the point of prayer, right?) But for someone who is actively trying to change my own opinions be them human or semi-deity, I see that as arrogant.

Marvin wrote:

and if I believed I was changing my existence and not ending it, would you not be interfering, willfully and arrogantly, with my wishes and choices? What if I was just about to fly? You may have well just killed me. Why can you not allow a man to live, or die, due to the consequences of his choices and desires?

Esmer with gun to his head

SB: Stop! don't do it!

Esmer: (points gun at SB) Whatup foo?

SB: I'm going to stop you!

Esmer: (calculates mathematical statistical probability of completing death mission with new SB data, concludes only 100% elimination of SB will result in 100% mission success) Bang! (shoots SB in head, points gun at own head)Bang!

Es, I don't believe everyone is in their own personal sphere of self and property and that we are free to do whatever we want so long as we do not directly infringe on anyone else's sphere. I don't believe everyone is an island. It's not an accurate picture of reality. Everything we do affects other people. I like you and wouldn't want to see you dead. Your being dead would negatively affect me. As such, there's no way I would let you kill yourself, regardless of your motivations for doing so, without making every attempt to stop you-exhausting every avenue. Even those that run counter to your specific wishes.

Ofcourse, if you could convince me that there was something else after this life I might consider joining you in suicide--but you'd have to go first.

aaaawww......

when did you start menstruating, btw? I didn't see anything mentioned in Gen Dis?

Our normal expectations about reality are created by a social consensus. We are taught how to see and understand the world. The trick of socialization is to convince us that the descriptions we agree upon define the limits of the real world. What we call reality is only one way of seeing the world, a way that is supported by social consensus...



The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity...Tales of Power

Esmer wrote: aaaawww......

when did you start menstruating, btw? I didn't see anything mentioned in Gen Dis?

Pffft...my body is so robust and adaptable I only started to menstruate to save wasting good money on calanders.

HELLO OUT THERE!!! did anybody see this post????? cause 2 pages later NO ONE has commented on it yet and i believe DW has NAILED the real nugget in this discussion.

to pray or not to pray is NOT the issue dudelets!!
(and by the way, i'm sort of in the Cail camp on this one LM, sorry but the truth is that all religions "think they're right and every other one is wrong" so...to point the finger at one and cry "arrogance" is sort of a moot point.)

and HERE is why i don't care one hoot in hell whether they leave those lines in the latin mass or not..

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Don't forget the political aspect of this. Jews can't sit around and let the world think that they have no issue with this 'reversion' (or however you choose to look at it). Silence is assent - which is why it was so important for many countries of the world to publicly denounce the recent public stoning in Iran as barbaric.
If they didn't take public issue with it, it's the same as giving permission to do more.
Now, whether they are deeply offended, or merely maintaining public posturing, I have no idea...

dw

because i'm of the opinion that its merely maintaining a public posture.

just my opinion, not carved in granite.


oh and...if anyone wants to pray for me for ANY reason, feel free and go right on ahead. (and thanks!)

wuz not.