Kevin's Watch

Fist, thanks for taking the time to explain your view of Linden clearly and patiently. You didn't have to make that effort, so I appreciate it very much.

You're welcome. Sorry for being a downer about it. I'll stop now. Hehe.

Nah, don't be sorry. You've got your view of Linden, and I've got mine. You make a persuasive case; at the very least, you've made me think more deeply about why it is I like Linden, what it is about her that appeals to me. Ultimately, it would seem I'm drawn to her for the same reasons that you're repelled by her. I don't know if this means I'm as neurotic as she is.

How could I tell?

(But hey, you're talking to a guy who likes listening to Mahler, the ultimate neurotic composer.)

matrixman wrote: (But hey, you're talking to a guy who likes listening to Mahler, the ultimate neurotic composer.)

The Gustave Mahler? I love that guy!

Yes, mm, it all makes sense now.

Fist and Faith wrote: Regarding Linden... (:lol:) The biggest problem is that, as it turns out, she has not grown since we first met her.

Actually, she seems to have regressed between the end of WGW and the start of FR (less obvious in RotE.) It does bother me as well.

OK, can we try to explain it, though? What killed Linden's confidence? I suspect losing Jeremiah, then getting him back, then seeing him as a croyel-puppet cannot be good. Covenant... had to go through something as demoralizing with Joan, but by the time he entered the Land in 2nd chronicles, it was over. The Sunbane was harrowing, but he had Andelain to restore him, and taking care of Linden to focus him. Linden's focus, Jeremiah, is keeping her going but also draining her at the same time.

Of course, the other question is will she get over it? I expect so, but I expect we'll many have more opportunities to hate her along the way. SRD's ongoing theme is redemption, and he makes sure his characters have something to redeem. I also recall too well how much I wanted to murder Covenant with my bare hands after the rape of Lena, and the way he mishandled Elena's love and life in the worst possible way. (and don't get me started on Angus. Ok, wrong forum.) But he does make us root for them in the end, and I expect that to happen to Linden again. So I'm still going to enjoy the ride, and forsake membership in the Linden-hater's club.

Those (risky) narrative predictions aside, I'm curious about others chiming in: Let's start with the assumption that SRD knows his job, and that there is a reason, so how can we _explain_ Linden's loss of confidence? I offered a few elements, I'm sure there is more.

Edit: Another thing that bothers me: I remember Linden being very comfortable yielding her health-sense and the ring (e.g. healing that giant...) Why is yielding the ring with the staff so different? (Law vs Health... but she remade law with health.) And at the end, she does yield both together to cure the Land of the Sunbane, does she not? Why did it become such a big deal that she needs the krill? That one may actually be a narrative hole.

amapa wrote:Why did it become such a big deal that she needs the krill? That one may actually be a narrative hole.

Wild magic is still... well, wild. She wanted a tool that not only could handle that magic and focus it, but could also use the Law that the Staff provided as well. The krill facilitated this and also seems to allow her to overcome some if not all of the effects of Kevin's Dirt as well...

Orlion wrote:The krill facilitated this and also seems to allow her to overcome some if not all of the effects of Kevin's Dirt as well...

Ah, Kevin's dirt is probably what I forgot to factor in the equation. Thanks, Orlion!
And its incapacitating effects might also affect her confidence, though that's more shaky. When have SRD characters ever been fazed by mere external unsurmountable obstacles?

This time she has a stake in the outcome. Before, she was basically "tagging along for the ride", with TC bearing the brunt of everything. Now, Linden has been the one to make decisions, forge allies, and take chances - all for the sake of getting her son back. The pressure upon her this time is enormous and she isn't quite as ready as she thought.

Wow..

Just backing up a bit - the Narnia stuff discussed before, to labour the point as a book of Christian symbolism, and remembering the fact that the kids in the narnia series actually died in that book, in the real world - the world beyond the door was a version of Heaven.

Back to this preview chapter. Wow. I have never been so excited / terrified / laughing with joy/relief at the same time before. Wow. Cannot wait for the rest of this series.*

My plan is to start the series in August and read each book in a week so I'm up to speed in October.

And Linden.. Hopefully she can trust Covenant and not withold everything from him. And I think I'd prefer the storey to concentrate on Mahrtiir / Pahni / Liand than Linden and Jeremiah.. When Jeremiah said 'mom' it was the only time I'd felt let down.. Like there was something unbelievable that hapenned in the story.. Well that and the Griffins.

*Oh..If it turns out that Linden and Jeremiah live happily ever after in the real world, I would be very UNhappy. Murderous rampage unhappy. Any other ending I think I'll enjoy!

** To explain the rantiness, this was posted at 5.55am on Sun 21st Feb where I am.. Time I went to sleep. Big day tomorrow

Romeo wrote:I can finally talk about (some) things! Yay!!!

THREE years ago, at the Elohimfest breakfast. Everyone was trying to figure out questions to ask during the interview. iQuestor suggested, "who built Foul's Creche?" Which was almost tossed out. But I insisted that he ask that question. It wasn't too long before that when I asked Steve that question myself becuase of the reference in Chapter 1. I always thought that it was too perfect for Foul to create - that it was probably one of the works of the Viles or Demondim (because of the description in Fatal Revenant - I think when Esmer was monologing at Glimmermere *grin*). But Steve's answer was so very unexpected - and yet it fit more perfectly than any other explanation I could have come up with myself. (see the video interviews on the official site for June 2007)

There's another comment from iQuestor ... and I can't comment on it until October. Argh!!!!!! Must. Keep. Big. Mouth. Shut.

...!!!!

Yeas, as soon as I read that comment I thought of that question and wondered if he put that in there because of that discussion; I'd like to think he did!

Hell, It was a frivolous thought that turned out to have much deeper implications. It was a great discussion!

As far as the other comment -- I'm trying to think. Either Korik, SIll and Doar, or Sarangrave Flats.... hmmmm!

Awesome, Romeo. I Hope we have an elohimfest this year around October!

I loved the first chapter! Great stuff! I was fearing that the next book would start with the worm popping up its ugly head in Andelain and destroying it, which would have been painful! I really liked the presentation of Covenants anguish upon being made mortal and constricted within time again, and also the flashbacks on LF and Loric.

I understand the frustration some here feel over Lindens regression. But as i understood it that is, at least partly, a consequence of her journey back in time. She drank the earthblood, and understood her betrayal at the hands of Roger and the croyel. And she was profoundly affected by her meeting with Caerroil Wildwood and Gallows Howe. I assumed she sort of settled into a narrow-minded "warrior mode" that made her refuse to question the outcome of her own strivings. But on some subconscious level, she does question, and that leaves her with anguish and repressed self-doubt.

Isnt one of Donaldsons trade marks that he creates flawed protagonists, very human and more like anti-heroes? Covenant was far worse than Linden until the later parts of TPTP. And isnt their weaknesses what makes us identify with them?

Ive also had my doubts about the last chronicles. TROTE was very unlike what i would have expected, and introduced the risky theme of time traveling, which i always felt uncomfortable with, in both fantasy and sci-fi. The masters, Kevins Dirt and the rather bloodless antagonists Demondim were all frustrating. But the story picked up pace in FR. I do trust Donaldsons ability to tell a story that will amaze us. And now that ive sort of gotten my head around the parts that i didnt expect and felt umcomfortable with (like time travel) i look forward to relaxing and letting the story take me wherever it needs to.

(If i could have one wish fullfilled regarding the content of the last two books it would be; Deflation in powerful beings that already know everything or near everything but just for the spite of it refuse to pass on any useful information to the protagonists. Dont you just feel like banging a Staff of Law in the head of the next elohim, Insequent, Esmer, Dead of Andelain or similar character that just hints endlessly, but never spits it out, until its too late..?)

Just noticed something... the title to this chapter is in the Prologue to Runes. It's referring to Joan, and also just happens to hint at what TC will experience...

SRD wrote:"... in effect, she had experienced more mortality than her chronological years could contain. Helpless to do otherwise, her flesh bore the burden of too much time."

Agree with a lot of what you said except this [which is something that keeps popping into various posts, cuz the issue keeps popping up]:

Atrium wrote: (If i could have one wish fullfilled regarding the content of the last two books it would be; Deflation in powerful beings that already know everything or near everything but just for the spite of it refuse to pass on any useful information to the protagonists. Dont you just feel like banging a Staff of Law in the head of the next elohim, Insequent, Esmer, Dead of Andelain or similar character that just hints endlessly, but never spits it out, until its too late..?)

The thing is, these super-powers, unlike many other fantasy writers versions, are, in every case so far, flawed in very "human" ways, unequal to their own power and the challenges that face them, and MOST important: freaking wrong without fail [about the events themselves, and the people who have to decide].
I don't think they refuse out of spite: they refuse out of a broad array of mistaken judgements, fear, and the needs of their own plans and conflicts.

heh...I do want to whack-em one with the staff though.

Relayer wrote:Just noticed something... the title to this chapter is in the Prologue to Runes. It's referring to Joan, and also just happens to hint at what TC will experience...

SRD wrote:"... in effect, she had experienced more mortality than her chronological years could contain. Helpless to do otherwise, her flesh bore the burden of too much time."

The phrase "He bore the burden of too much time" is also used in relation to Anele when he and Linden are brought before the Masters in Revelstone later in ROTE.

Please forgive me, I haven't read the entire thread. Has anyone mentioned this?

On page 11 of Runes, SRD wrote:No form of nourishment, oral or IV, no brushing or other imposed care, could replace her body's need for ordinary use. In effect, she had experienced more mortality than her chronological years could contain. Helpless to do otherwise, her flesh bore the burden of too much time.

I didn't realize this the first time I read the Chapter One: The Burden of Too Much Time. I thought it only applied to Thomas Covenant. But now that I'm rereading Runes, obviously it applies to both Tom and Joan.

Zarathustra wrote:Please forgive me, I haven't read the entire thread. Has anyone mentioned this?

On page 11 of Runes, SRD wrote:No form of nourishment, oral or IV, no brushing or other imposed care, could replace her body's need for ordinary use. In effect, she had experienced more mortality than her chronological years could contain. Helpless to do otherwise, her flesh bore the burden of too much time.

I didn't realize this the first time I read the Chapter One: The Burden of Too Much Time. I thought it only applied to Thomas Covenant. But now that I'm rereading Runes, obviously it applies to both Tom and Joan.

Nice catch, Z. Knowing SRD, this isn't accidental.

Zarathustra wrote:Please forgive me, I haven't read the entire thread. Has anyone mentioned this?

Z, read the posts directly above yours...

Relayer wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:Please forgive me, I haven't read the entire thread. Has anyone mentioned this?

Z, read the posts directly above yours...

Wow. I totally missed that! Yeah, I guess I should have read this thread.

No worries