In case we haven't beaten the abortion horse to death yet

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I would guess more of the former than the latter, but don't actually know.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

I'd certainly bet it's direct guilt. I've never heard the women I know who've talked about it say they were concerned with how society viewed them.

[Kaydene]

Yeah. It's not exactly the ideal situation. Obviously there's going to be some crappy emotions tied to a decision like that. I don't think either side is arguing that it's a decision to take lightly.

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Perhaps not, but the people who oppose it often seem to do so on the grounds that it's "consequence free." Getting off lightly for having done something dumb. I'm just trying to suggest that it's not without its own, sometimes severe, consequences.

--A

[Kaydene]

Perhaps not, but the people who oppose it often seem to do so on the grounds that it's "consequence free." Getting off lightly for having done something dumb. I'm just trying to suggest that it's not without its own, sometimes severe, consequences.

--A

idk. I'm under the impression that that "consequence-free" platform is one that the opposition has used against pro-choice advocates. Just because someone has the choice doesn't mean they a) will make that choice and 2) that it's an easy or consequence-free one.

The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?

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idk. I'm under the impression that that "consequence-free" platform is one that the opposition has used against pro-choice advocates.

That's exactly what I just said...

--A

[Kaydene]

idk. I'm under the impression that that "consequence-free" platform is one that the opposition has used against pro-choice advocates.

That's exactly what I just said...

--A

Apologies. I must've read your response incorrectly.

So...I'm just adding to your post, then.

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--A

[Rawedge Rim]

Were there really fewer young pregnancies, I'm not so sure? Population was much smaller before the 1960s, so you have to look at per capita, not sheer volume. It's hard to believe that as soon as abortion was made legal everyone just ran out and had one for kicks

Then we had girls being sent away to have the baby and have it adopted out, so no one knew they were pregnant, throwing themselves down stairs, back alley abortions, and shotgun weddings, no way to really gather statistics on those things.

While I don't have any figures to back it up, I don't believe, as a per capita figure, that there were nearly as many out of wedlock pregnacies as there are now. Prior to birthcontrol, there was a cultural value to entering into marriage as a virgin (for the female).

I don't think that the legality of abortion made it a must have experience, if there were fewer pregnacies prior to the legality, which was a result of uncertain birth control, and cultural pressures, then I have to assume that there were fewer abortions.

[Rawedge Rim]

Yup. As sindatur says, it happened a whole lot before the 60's. Coat-hanger and back-alley abortions were more common. And more girls died from things like infections and bleeding. They were old enough to have sex, and they were old enough to accept the consequences. Pretty harsh consequences, though.

and yet on a per capita basis, how many "coat hanger" abortions were performed compared to modern abortion. How many older women do you know that had the 'coat hanger' abortion?

Yes, sex happened before the sexual revolution of the 60's, but many of those ended in the couple marrying for the child, rather than deciding that the unborn child should die so that they can remain single.

[Rawedge Rim]

Perhaps not, but the people who oppose it often seem to do so on the grounds that it's "consequence free." Getting off lightly for having done something dumb. I'm just trying to suggest that it's not without its own, sometimes severe, consequences.

--A

but not as severe as it is for the unborn child who is aborted. Again, it's a permanent solution for a temporary problem, that would have been prevented with the use of birthcontrol pills and condom use.

[Orlion]

I'd certainly bet it's direct guilt. I've never heard the women I know who've talked about it say they were concerned with how society viewed them.

Think about it though: since a person can remember, if they are constantly bombarded with such ideas as "abortion is murder" that could make it into the person's subconscious.

Now, I'm not saying it's all cultural, but I think it can play a major role in how we view abortions.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes. I'm not saying society doesn't play a role in what we think is murder. But the guilt is from "I committed murder" not "Society thinks I'm bad."

[finn]

Apologies. I must've read your response incorrectly.

So...I'm just adding to your post, then.

Don't aologise, the post was way worth it for this.....

The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?

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but not as severe as it is for the unborn child who is aborted. Again, it's a permanent solution for a temporary problem, that would have been prevented with the use of birthcontrol pills and condom use.

The child (embryo/foetus) who is aborted doesn't experience that consequence. If it doesn't get born, it's pretty much the same as if it never existed. Especially if we are (as I am) talking about early-term abortion. That clutch of cells has no lost out in any measurable way.

--A

[DukkhaWaynhim]

The child (embryo/foetus) who is aborted doesn't experience that consequence. If it doesn't get born, it's pretty much the same as if it never existed. Especially if we are (as I am) talking about early-term abortion. That clutch of cells has no lost out in any measurable way.

I don't think the absolute lifers think that way. They are fixated on the "coulda/shoulda/woulda", instead of the "didn't", because they define life starting at conception, and anything that disrupts that life is taking that life. The best of the lifers at least take a consistent approach, and are also anti-euthanasia and anti-death penalty -- the thinking being that life is life, we don't have the right to take the lives of others, quality of life be damned.

dw

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And I can't see it as life in the human sense, so don't count it as a lost one.

I can't see a workable compromise, because any compromise must violate the fundamental principle by which abortion opponents oppose it.

--A

[sindatur]

Were there really fewer young pregnancies, I'm not so sure? Population was much smaller before the 1960s, so you have to look at per capita, not sheer volume. It's hard to believe that as soon as abortion was made legal everyone just ran out and had one for kicks

Then we had girls being sent away to have the baby and have it adopted out, so no one knew they were pregnant, throwing themselves down stairs, back alley abortions, and shotgun weddings, no way to really gather statistics on those things.

While I don't have any figures to back it up, I don't believe, as a per capita figure, that there were nearly as many out of wedlock pregnacies as there are now. Prior to birthcontrol, there was a cultural value to entering into marriage as a virgin (for the female).

I don't think that the legality of abortion made it a must have experience, if there were fewer pregnacies prior to the legality, which was a result of uncertain birth control, and cultural pressures, then I have to assume that there were fewer abortions.

I included "shotgun Weddings", you seem to be dismissing them as not being part of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies. I think in today's society, "Shotgun Weddings" would be toxic way more often than back in the 50s or 60s.

For the record, I think abortion is a terrible shame, and should be avoided whenever possible (And I don't think I could ever forgive a woman who aborted a child I fathered, in I engaged in behaviors that lead to pregnancies) but, I stop short of making it illegal. I think, now with the Morning after pill so readily available there is very little need for elective abortions, and certainly when you have an opportunity to prevent the pregnancy with Birth Control methods, and then with the morning after pill, and finally to abort it early in term, it is pretty criminal to electvely abort late term babies and that should be illegal.

NOTE: I do not classify abortions for the safety of the mother to be elective, so of course theya re exempted.

[Orlion]

Yes. I'm not saying society doesn't play a role in what we think is murder. But the guilt is from "I committed murder" not "Society thinks I'm bad."

And my point its that one mainly thinks, "I committed murder" because culture has all ready defined it for that person as such. A lot of the values we have, even if applied individually, are collective or social values fabricated by a collective.

Now, on a counterpoint, I don't know how much the "chemical imbalance" would play in such matters. It'd probably be significant in that abortion is not a valuble evolutionary characteristic. Of course, the morality of an action doesn't necesarilly depend upon such principles, but it does muddy the waters up a bit.

[Orlion]

And I can't see it as life in the human sense, so don't count it as a lost one.
--A

Same here, but as DW pointed out, that's not how pro-lifers view it, even the non-religious view it as morally wrong because you're cutting of a "potential." It seems like the only real compromise that can be reached is in cases of rape, threatening the life of the mother, and (IMO) incense.