Star Wars - The Force Awakens

[Hashi Lebwohl]

One of these reveals will be that someone whom we thought dead, because he clearly couldn't survive what happened to him, will not be dead.

No way.

I wasn't talking about him.

I don't mind a few plot elements reminding us of previous movies; it isn't the first time it has happened and it won't be the last.

For Murrin,

Spoiler

1. In my opinion, Rey is Luke's daughter--her clothing matches his and his original lightsaber called out to her.
2. The hologram is enlarged on purpose to make people look up at him.
3. Don't know--probably unimportant people.
4. How do we know that she isn't?

[Cagliostro]

Non-spoiler part -
I just got out of the theater, but I feel ever so slightly let down, and I can't quite put into words why.
The good bits are definitely that it felt SOOOOO much more real than it has for a while, for reasons pointed out before. Particularly how lightsabers are handled and even blasters. Plus, as I stated before, the sadness of the old ships buried in the sand, and the full scale of the aftermath of the events in the original trilogy handled not only through dialogue, but so masterfully done visually. Not only that, but the dialogue felt real instead of how it always seemed stilted and RUSHED (due to the "wonderful" directing of actors by his saying "faster, more intense.") And the new leads are wonderful.
The bad - as much as I keep hearing from people who have seen it, "it definitely was a Star Wars movie," I didn't feel it. As someone who saw it earlier said, it feels more like a reboot than a sequel. Yes, years have gone by, but Han and Leia just did not feel the same to me, which honestly, I was expecting. But as good as the action was, there always seems like a clearly defined action set piece in each Star Wars movie (if not more than one) that you can point to and say "wow, that was fun." I can't say there was anything like that here. For as poorly executed as the Prequels were, you can say "well, there was the Darth Maul fight, and the First Yoda lightsaber duel, and the asteroid field fight with Obi Wan and Jango, and the opening of Ep. 3 that got the blood pumping." Can't say so here. Plus, as far as I could tell, nobody lost a hand or arm, so how can you call it a Star Wars movie
The spoilers:

Spoiler

Hashi - what are you getting at with the person we thought dead isn't? Are you talking about the Emperor, or someone else?
The good - I got strangely emotional at the end when Rey present Luke the lightsaber, nearly to tears. I really enjoyed Han in it, and can't help but feel the rest of the movies will greatly miss him.
The bad - It felt like they were keeping too much to the chest - that they have a plan for the characters, but they are only revealing precious little. This felt more like a feature-length trailer for the next movies from that standpoint to reveal several things that they set up.
I thought Luke was supposed to be in this damn movie. And yes, I know, he was. But not really. Especially since they gave a shot in the trailer and had him repeat what was said in ROTJ, but add an extra line. That lead me to believe he would have a speaking role. Lame.
And Han's death....sigh...I heard the rumor and fully expected it. And as much reverence as they gave every other aspect of the old crew, his death did not seem noble or deserving of arguably the best character in the series. Much as I'd feel if I'd seen Obi-Wan's death if the episodes had been shot in order.

I dunno...there was so much that was good about it that I don't know why I feel a bit let down. My expectations were pretty high, which might be a start, but so many people feel it delivered that I wish I could share it. I have no idea what Lucas's write up was, but now I'm curious to hear what it actually was, and how surprising it might have been. Which I can't say I found any real surprises here.
I think Ep 4 is good because this was Lucas at his height of storytelling and maybe just slightly past his peak as a director. Since Ep 5 and 6 were directed by others, it made them a bit better. And then he directed 1-3, which was a mistake. What should have happened in 1-3 is that he let others direct, but he write the treatment and the director throw out the crap and emphasize the good.
It felt very modern, and maybe because I'm more of a fanboy than the average Joe, I just feel it was missing Lucas's touch for it to feel just right. But overall, I do have to say it was a better "movie" than any of the prequels, and probably even Return of the Jedi.

[Fist and Faith]

Z,

Spoiler

The EU isn't canon for the movies, I think? He's Ben, not Jacen, even if he also turned to the Darkside. It seems they didn't have twins. I'm sure Rey wouldn't have lived her life without parents if she was theirs.

Spoiler

I can't think of a more obvious answer than her being Luke's daughter. Even if they don't follow EU lore closely, maybe he and Mara had a daughter. And Ben Solo killed Mara when new turned. That would make Luke's disappearance more understandable. Unfortunately, if Rey if his, then he's pathetic for having left her like that. Better not be the answer.

[peter]

Awsome posts guys from people whose views I respect (on any subject). I'm in: I'll book my ticket asap!

[I'm Murrin]

Spoiler

The whole thing with Maz Kenada, where she's like "you know they're never coming back, but someone else might - Luke" doesn't feel to me like something they'd do if Luke was Rey's father.

And if Rey is Luke's daughter, and she was left on Jakku to protect her after Ren killed Luke's students, why would she think Luke Skywalker was a myth? She was easily old enough to understand who her family was before they left her - what reason would they have to put her in hiding before that? Luke's daughter would have grown up with Ben Solo.

Hashi:

Spoiler

I can't work out who you're referring to with the "isn't dead" thing. Who else was presumed dead? Closest thing I can think of is Phasma getting dropped in the trash compactor, but it's already confirmed she's in the sequel.

Anyway, I saw the film again and it's still great. It's a bit flabby around the middle - from about when Han Solo first appears - but the first and last thirds are so goddamn good.

[Cail]

It looks, sounds, and feels like Star Wars, and that's a very good thing.

But.....

It's a reboot of Star Wars with old actors. It hits all the beats and plot points of the first film.

And as much as I like action set pieces......The storytelling was light. It suffered due to lasers and explosions and stuff.

It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. Considering i was convinced it was going to suck, I'm pleasantly surprised. But I wanted more. I will say that it blows the prequels out of the water.

[I'm Murrin]

Odd questions:

Spoiler

Where'd the map to Luke come from? Why'd the guy from Jakku have one small piece of it, and how did R2, sitting in low power mode, suddenly come up with the rest?
Was Maz Kanata's place on a planet in the same system as the Republic? It seemed like it from the way the planets hit by the weapon were visible. But it didn't seem that way from the way they talk about the system that was hit.
If Stormtroopers are raised to do only one thing, why was one of them working in sanitation?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The "isn't really dead" person isn't from TFA.

The First Order arose from the ashes of the Empire but that cannot be the entire story because the Empire wouldn't have collapsed overnight just because of the events in Episode VI. Regional governors put into power by the Emperor would retain their grip on power at all cost and continue to pledge their support to the Empire. He might not have made plans for succession but the highest-ranking admirals would have argued among themselves until one of them assume power as the new "Emperor", keeping the military dominance in place. Perhaps this is how the First Order came into existence, a process which probably took only a couple of years, giving the First Order more than 20 years to make preparations for whatever it is they are trying to do (which is probably nothing more than "hang on to power").

Cail, this movie is just an extended, glorified trailer for the next Episode. The groundwork had to be put into place, the character introduced, and the plot started; now that all the initial conditions have been set we can get into the real story in the next move and figure out what is really going on.

Spoiler

I still maintain that Rey is Luke's daughter, citing her clothing and the lightsaber as proof. Why would he leave her on Jakku? Perhaps he had a premonition which prompted him to remove her from the equation to spare her. We should find out in EpVIII. Besides, she heard rumors and stories about Jedi while growing up; given that she clearly lives alone in the hull of a collapsed AT-AT from whom did she hear these stories?

I don't know who Max Von Sydow's character on Jakku was, either, nor do I know why he would have the map. The fact that Rey is on Jakku, as well as "the last piece of the map" leads me to think that Luke gave him the map himself with a caution that he should never give it to anyone until the time was right. R2 probably had most of the map all along but was told to power down until the missing piece was brought to him. Why no one ever externally accessed R2's data core is a mystery, though.

Technically, any planet or system which isn't firmly under Empire/First Order control is in the Republic. The death of the Emperor would have been met with an immediate reconvening of the Senate as it tries to get back its power and reassert control. They would have been opposed by the military, of course, which kept gaining power under the Emperor in the time between EpIII and EpIV.

Being raise to do "one thing" could mean "follow orders"; if your orders include "maintain the sewage disposal systems" then that is what you do. Notice now, though, that Stormtroopers are no longer clones but individual people taken from their families at a very young age then stripped of their name so that there is no real individuality.

Am I the only one so far to arrive at the conclusion that Finn is Lando Calrissian's son?

It makes sense that the lightsaber could have wound up in Maz Kanata's possession. Someone found a disembodied hand holding this thing in Bespin, they traded it (or it was stolen from them) then it changed owners again over the next few years until Maz managed to acquire it. She probably even knew to whom it belonged and that someone would come looking for it some day.

[Fist and Faith]

The "isn't really dead" person isn't from TFA.

The First Order arose from the ashes of the Empire but that cannot be the entire story because the Empire wouldn't have collapsed overnight just because of the events in Episode VI.

Not in a well-written story, it wouldn't have. Heh

I agree about Rey. She was called, after all. But he better have a dammed good reason.

Having only seen it once, I don't remember. But was that part of the map actually found there?

[Fist and Faith]

Well, there's more info in the novelization. I've heard some say it shouldn't count, or at least shouldn't be necessary. But I'll take it.

[I'm Murrin]

Prediction:

Spoiler

Luke Skywalker will be a force ghost by the end of this trilogy. Possibly by the end of the next film.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Having only seen it once, I don't remember. But was that part of the map actually found there?

Yes, the vast majority of the map was in the powered-down R2 but the last part of the map was in the possession of Max von Sydow (I can't remember the character's name) of Jakku. Again, I don't know why he had it but he definitely had it, which is why Po was sent there.

[Fist and Faith]

What I mean is, did Tarkin (Fine. Lor San Tekka.) find his part of the map on Jakku, or did he find it elsewhere and tell them to meet him there? But it seems he found it there. The scrolling words, which I think are reproduced exactly in the book, say he discovered it there. Which could make sense. Luke had this clue near his daughter, eh?

The fact that Tekka happened to be living on Jakku - a village elder in the book - is quite the coincidence. Had he been searching for the map all along? Why would anybody think it was there? If because he thought it might be near Luke's daughter, you'd think he would have been involved with Rey in some way. Which does not seem to have been the case.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I was thinking that he had been given the map section by Luke himself, but if he found it at random then simply hidden on the same planet where Rey got left and not by coincidence.

I am still uncertain exactly why Kylo Ren has an inferiority complex, especially when he can

Spoiler

Force-catch a blaster bolt in mid-flight

[I'm Murrin]

Spoiler

Yeah, his force use in that first appearance is really impressive. But I think the rest we see of it he's always up agaist Rey, who is apparently stronger despite no training.
I think the insecurity is more about his emotios, and his inclination toward the light side. He doesn't have the discipline of Vader, and lacks confidence in his choice to to go the dark side. I got the impression that there's something that's convinced him he needs to follow the dark, and I'd like to see what Snoke's been telling him.

[JIkj fjds j]

He made me think of Esmer.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Spoiler

Yeah, his force use in that first appearance is really impressive. But I think the rest we see of it he's always up agaist Rey, who is apparently stronger despite no training.
I think the insecurity is more about his emotios, and his inclination toward the light side. He doesn't have the discipline of Vader, and lacks confidence in his choice to to go the dark side. I got the impression that there's something that's convinced him he needs to follow the dark, and I'd like to see what Snoke's been telling him.

Spoiler

Rey was learning how to be a Jedi the way the first Jedi learned how to be Jedi--she "felt" her way there, listening to it, and following it. It doesn't hurt that she had always heard rumors and stories about what they could do: "Jedi can control your mind"..."Jedi can move things without touching them"...and so on and so forth.

She is more powerful only because she trusts herself. Kylo Ren neither trusts himself nor trusts in himself, hence his weakness despite already having developed some powers that even Vader didn't have, such as actual telepathy (even if only when up close). He needs to follow the dark because he thinks that is the only way to be as powerful as his grandfather was.

What is the over/under on Anakin/Vader's force ghost showing up in the next two movies? If so, will they get Christiansen to portray its visage or will they get someone else?

[Fist and Faith]

In the prequel novelizations, the Force worked through each Jedi in a different way. I guess now we see another way.

[JIkj fjds j]

Maybe the Jedi have figured out a way to link up their living-force to a much greater effect. Controlling, to some extent, the Midi-Chlorians to (force gravity wells), and effect change: too much coincidence and flukes spell a higher consciousness lurking behind the scenes.

Spoiler

Han Solo showed he was a true believer, not only by telling Rey that all the old tales really happened, but his act of sacrifice on the bridge was reminiscent of Obi Wan and Darth Vader.

[Fist and Faith]

In the book, when the lightsaber flies past Ren's hand and into Rey's, Ren mutters, "It is you." Did he say that in the movie?


Also when R2 wakes up (I'm only skimming, and didn't see why he was asleep or why he woke up), he hears them talking about the map. They're saying the First Order has the rest of the map, having found it in Imperial archives. In the process of destroying all the Jedi temples, the Empire learned stuff, and pieced together most of a map. Hearing this, R2 goes through his data banks. He had hooked up with the Empire's computers a few times, and thought the map might be in there somewhere. That's how they got the larger portion of the map to go with their fragment.