Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:41 am**

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:50 pm**

Quoting things other people have said doesn't make them true.

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:55 pm**

I think that the indecisiveness point needs to be explored, because it looks promising. I don't understand what's being defended here...

What is your objection to having reasons for actions? I don't think there's anything cold or scientific about any of this, I think that this is the most optimistic behaviour theory that I've ever heard of. Dear god! what if you could CONVINCE someone that doing something stupid is a bad idea? they'd never do it again. No matter what.

Of course, the convincing here would have to be fundamental. It couldn't just be getting someone to accept something 'intellectually' as true. Because that's easy to do. As easy as saying something like "Smoking is bad" or "alcohol is poison".
It would have to be a fundamental affirmation of a learned truth... all kinds of big implications here. I'm kind of in an odd mood, so I'll think more about this and then come back to it a bit later today.

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:56 pm**

Oh, ChoChiyo, are you a Rock fan?

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:20 pm**

Nathan wrote:Quoting things other people have said doesn't make them true.

Nor does denying them make them untrue.

Hey, it was just a poem about the topic at hand, eh?

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:49 pm**

Hey, instead of trying to justify determinism, why don't we talk about this alleged 'free will' that you guys seem to experience

Can you describe it? I'm looking for new ideas for the discussion, and I want to look at it from the other direction. It seems to me, and I might be wrong, that you're saying free will exists because you feel it... anything to add on the subject?

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:42 am**

Nathan wrote:Quoting things other people have said doesn't make them true.

Doesn't make them untrue, either.

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:51 am**

JemCheeta wrote:Hey, instead of trying to justify determinism, why don't we talk about this alleged 'free will' that you guys seem to experience Can you describe it? I'm looking for new ideas for the discussion, and I want to look at it from the other direction. It seems to me, and I might be wrong, that you're saying free will exists because you feel it... anything to add on the subject?

Well, my dear, here's what I believe about free will...

About eight years ago, I worked at a job that was not perfect, but I loved it. I gave everything I had to it, every day. Then, a nasty, evil little troll came on board as the new principal. He was nasty, sarcastic, hostile, and bullying. He single handedly destroyed the morale of the school within the first six months of his evil regime.

After five years of continuous abuse from this man at a personal and professional level, I packed up my stuff and kissed 15 years of seniority (not to mention my dearly beloved kids and colleagues) and left. Now I'm at a charter/alternate school which is stable, as far as it goes, but could become unstable very rapidly.

But that's not my example of free will. My free will is this: I'm sickeningly friendly. I like everybody. Everybody. I have no taste at all.

However, I do hate that nasty, controlling, evil little shit who still continues his reign of terror at my old school.

I have had many opportunities to do very bad things to him. Very bad. And I could get away with it too...but I choose not to--because I do not want to sink to his level. It is my free choice to do this. (Though sometimes it makes me grit my teeth and say GAH!!! when I realize how easy and satisfying it would be to do something GHASTLY to him and NOT GET CAUGHT.

If I ever decide to do something to him, that would be my free will also. It would sully me for the rest of my life, but I could choose to do so, if I wanted to.

I won't let his foulness turn me foul as well.

Free will.

EDIT: I guess I am a ROCK fan. I didn't know who the heck he was until one of my kids did a book report on his autobiography. It was so interesting that I read it. Then, I watched the DVD commentary portions of a couple of his movies. He's intelligent, articulate, and witty as hell! Love him.

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:34 am**

JemCheeta wrote:Hey, instead of trying to justify determinism, why don't we talk about this alleged 'free will' that you guys seem to experience Can you describe it? I'm looking for new ideas for the discussion, and I want to look at it from the other direction. It seems to me, and I might be wrong, that you're saying free will exists because you feel it... anything to add on the subject?

Well, it's like this. I feel my own free will. I suspect that, if I had lived my entire life without ever having heard of any of these concepts, the notion of free will would be so self-evident that I'd never even consider that it wasn't real. What about you? What do you feel? If you had been marooned on Gilligan's Island when you were just old enough to survive, do you think you'd eventually come to the conclusion that your decision to go to the lagoon on any given occasion, or to pick and eat an orange instead of a pineapple, was not truly under your control, but was something that you could not have done otherwise?

I know how dangerous it is to speak for anyone else, let alone everyone else, but am I wrong about this? Does anyone feel otherwise? Even having the logical reasons that you and Nathan have for believing otherwise, how does it feel to you? Over the centuries, people have noticed that certain things couldn't be free will. I've posted this passage from Sophie's World before:

"Think of a newborn baby that screams and yells. If it doesn't get milk it sucks its thumb. Does that baby have a free will?"

"I guess not."

"When does the child get its free will then? At the age of two, she runs around and points at everything in sight. At the age of three she nags her mother, and at the age of four she suddenly gets afraid of the dark. Where's the freedom, Sophie?"

"I don't know."

"When she is fifteen, she sits in front of a mirror experimenting with makeup. Is this the moment when she makes her own personal decisions and does what she likes?"

If something is a matter of free will, we would not see everyone in the given situation making the same decision.

But the fact that I know that some things are not what I had assumed they were does not remove the strong feeling of my own free will. I live inside my own head, after all, eh? I am more than happy to hear your thoughts to the contrary. Heck, I love this stuff!

What you and Nathan have been saying is thoughtful and, for the most part, is logical to me. But there's no evidence that says it's what's really happening. I've read about a few religious systems that are logical and beautiful, but that doesn't mean I believe them. I just don't feel them. But I do feel free will. The point that makes me say "logical to me, for the most part" is your idea of the illusion. Free will is a specific, amazingly powerful, species-wide illusion that is entirely accidental? And of no value, as far as helping us stay alive? I just can't see the likelihood of such a thing. Rather than assume this, I find it easier to assume that the unimaginable complexity of the brain (which Loremaster can tell us about if he finds the time

), and the interactions of all the different parts of it, have somehow achieved self-awareness and free will. Maybe we'll figure it out one day, but maybe not. Again, from Neverness: If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't.

I guess the short of it is that, no, I can't offer any more evidence to support my position than you can yours. We each believe what we do because it makes sense inside each of our heads.

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:20 am**

Great post Fist, and I've always thought Sophie's World was an excellent book.

To try and clarify my own position on why I experience free will:

I am, always and constantly, aware of the fact that I have choices. That, should I wish, I can carry out any one of a variety of acts. Nothing compels me to unreservedly carry out one course of action. In things as simple as whether or not to turn on a light, I have the choice. The choice to sit in the dark should I so wish, or to turn it on, and sit in the bright, artificial light.

It is always up to me. And for me, that sums it up. I have choices. And selecting one of those choices above the other is an excercise in free will.

Perhaps the realisation of free will is a direct result of self-awareness? Or perhaps self-awareness leads to the discovery of free will. Regardless, I am free to turn on my PC today, or free to leave it off.

Pre-determination suggests, to me, that I will always choose the one of those that I am meant to, and that implies that something means me to do so. I doubt very much that the universe cares whether I do either of those things. And that means that it is up to me.

--Avatar

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:38 pm**

Pre-determination suggests, to me, that I will always choose the one of those that I am meant to, and that implies that something means me to do so. I doubt very much that the universe cares whether I do either of those things. And that means that it is up to me.

Please, don't take us back down this road, it's already been covered:

JemCheeta wrote:I am concerned that people are looking at this as something that you are 'forced' to do, something like an 'undeniable urge'. That isn't the sense in which I mean determanism. I'm suggesting that the conclusion of your desire is inevitable, and that you will never act outside your desire.

The universe doesn't care, there's nothing 'forcing' you other than your own ultimate desire. You're not 'meant' to do anything. It'd be possible to predict 100% accurately what you'd do, but only if you knew everything

Posted: **Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:49 am**

Fair enough, but I think you missed the fundamental point I was trying to make.

Avatar wrote:I am, always and constantly, aware of the fact that I have choices.

If you can choose equally between anything, you have free will. What your choice is, and why you make it, doesn't matter. The simple fact that you can choose, is enough.

--Avatar

Posted: **Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:38 pm**

Please forgive me if this has been brought to the discussion before; I haven't read back through the entire backlog of postings--

It seems to me that Free Will is obvious. What would be the point of our existence and our ability to think and comprehend if there were no free will? If the great Determiner was just jerking us like puppets on the string (or manipulating us like big barbie dolls), why bother to give us minds that think and ponder and consider?

And if the Universe (or the great Determiner) doesn't care--why would anything bother to determine our fates for us?

Maybe I'm just being thick here, but....anything other than free will just seems illogical to me.

Maybe it's because I myself have never been in a situation where I have not been aware of both my variety of choices and their probable outcomes--even when I've been too drunk to stand up or too angry to see straight. My fury and/or drunkenness never even determined my choices--except the obvious "passing out" result--but I can't say that that was really anything other than a biological reaction to having poisoned myself past my body's ability to cope, at which point it said, "Okay, we're done here." *plop*

Posted: **Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:13 pm**

It seems to me that Free Will is obvious. What would be the point of our existence and our ability to think and comprehend if there were no free will? If the great Determiner was just jerking us like puppets on the string (or manipulating us like big barbie dolls), why bother to give us minds that think and ponder and consider?

Determinism doesn't mean that someone/something else chooses your actions for you, it means that the actions you choose will be the only ones you can choose. The choices you make, although they are your own, are fundamentally dictated by the experiences of your life because you know no other way to choose than the way you have learned through your life.

Posted: **Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:22 pm**

Hummm.... am I the only person that ever felt an inevitability of the vast majority of my actions? Perhaps this comes to me because I experience life differently than some?
That sounds egotistical, and I am very wary of egotism... however, this question does not have the same immediate answer for me that it seems to for y'all....
I don't think I can put this any other way, and I'm afraid that might lead me to abandon the dialogue here....
Just to summarize though....

When I take an action (and I believe all actions are determined based on a combination of the physics of the world around me and the physics of the world inside of me) and look back on it, while at the time I did not know what my decision was, because I was still making it, that decision was inevitable. The conclusion to our decisions are what I believe are determinable and determined.

I'm not believing in a UNIVERSE or a GREAT DETERMINER, I'm talking about physics here. ChoChiyo, you ask what the point of our existence would be if there was no free will... I don't know how to answer that from my perspective, except that there is no point to life as I know it except to decide that point for myself, to live out my choices and to experience everything I can, and even that point is something that I decided. In the same way that someone might say that enlightenment would be the point, or the afterlife would be the point, if there experiences led them to believe those things.

Who I am now feels like the product of my life, and my emotions, and my thoughts. Those thoughts and emotions were products of various processes that acted upon my awareness. Perhaps my opinion on this has something to do with my manic depression... that disorder allowed me to experience the dramatic changes in reality, and then I was given medicine so that reality would settle down at a specific place. I don't feel that specific place is any more true then either my manic or depressed state, just less biased.

My personality and my decisions at the time I was unmedicated changed drastically in the face of those chemical swings. They were the lense through which I looked at the world, and when combined with my experiences, determined my actions.

This isn't about getting out of responsibility, or about 'killing' free will. I think our will, our decision making process, is perfectly free. And predictable.

Hmmm.... ok, just to keep pushing on in this, I have another question (because I'm not quite giving up yet

)
Are humans the only creatures with free will, or do animals have free will also? Or just specific animals?

Posted: **Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:24 pm**

Sorry to double post, but I forgot to mention that I thought that post, Fist, was a really good one. It was like amiably bringing out the big guns, all smiles etc

But on a side note, I think the Neverness quote (the second one about the complexity of the human mind) was more in favor of my point than yours....
Either way, I have to read this book. In fact, your quoting habit has introduced me to a multitude of books I have to read! and shows I have to see! and movies I have to watch!

Posted: **Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:46 am**

Nathan wrote: Determinism doesn't mean that someone/something else chooses your actions for you, it means that the actions you choose will be the only ones you can choose. The choices you make, although they are your own, are fundamentally dictated by the experiences of your life because you know no other way to choose than the way you have learned through your life.

OK Nathan, I think that I now have a good understanding of your viewpoint here, and I must say, that it is, and has been, a persuasive argument.

What about the fact that we select the experiences we have? Or at least, we select how we experience them? If this is true, couldn't one say that in effect, we determine how we will make our future choices, based on our choice to experience something in a particular way? And that choice leads to experience, which may determine our all following choices. If determinism supercedes free will, perhaps we are the determinators in the end.

--Avatar

Posted: **Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:59 am**

JemCheeta wrote:Hummm.... am I the only person that ever felt an inevitability of the vast majority of my actions?

I have not. Overall preferences, yes, but not specific actions. As I've said, my preferences for Bach over Mozart, chocolate over vanilla, Italian food over Chinese, naked women over naked men, etc etc, feel entirely beyond my control. But Nathan believes (not entirely sure if you do) that my decision to listen to a specific Bach recording at a specific time is determined by my past experiences, and that I could not have chosen to not listen to that specific Bach recording at that specific time. I believe that I could have chosen otherwise, but didn't. The fact that I did make a particular decision doesn't mean I had to.

Jem wrote:Are humans the only creatures with free will, or do animals have free will also? Or just specific animals?

I'd say animals have free will to one degree or another. Yet another Neverness quote:

"This question of free will is subtle and treacherous, and we won't solve it here. Better men than we have enslaved their minds wondering about free will. Let us say that a living thing is free, relatively free, the greater its independence from its environment. The more it depends on other living systems, the more its activities are necessarily shaped by its environment. Independence increases with complexity; the greater the complexity, the greater the amount of free will. A virus, for instance, must largely do what it is programmed to do. A man is more complex."

A shrew eats a crazy amount of food. I don't remember the specifics off hand, but a few times its own body weight every day. It has little free will, since it must spend most of its time eating. Also, its senses tell it where the most likely place to find food are, and it can't afford to waste time looking in other than the most likely places. It also has predators that it must avoid, and must therefore avoid going certain places. OTOH, for me, I'm fortunate enough to say, starvation is not at all likely. And humans don't really have predators. To a large degree, I can go where I want, when I want.

JemCheeta wrote:Sorry to double post, but I forgot to mention that I thought that post, Fist, was a really good one. It was like amiably bringing out the big guns, all smiles etc

Well, if you're gonna double post, this is a reason I can support!

JemCheeta wrote:But on a side note, I think the Neverness quote (the second one about the complexity of the human mind) was more in favor of my point than yours....

Yes, so many things can be taken more than one way. I, ahem, choose to take it my way.

That is, I feel my own free will. How can it be explained? I have no idea. The problem is easy enough to see. Neverness again. heh

"Aren't we made of atoms of matter? Bits of carbon and oxygen that combine according to universal laws? Aren't these laws programmed into the very fabric of our universe? And if this is so, if each neuron in your wild, brilliant brain fires solely according to the laws of chemistry, then why should you think that you have any will at all?"

Seems odd that I believe I have free will, eh? But I experience it every moment. As I said, it seems more logical to me that the extraordinary complexity of the brain somehow gives us free will than the pointless illusion of it. We aren't close to understanding the brain, so I'm not surprised we can't explain free will. As Data said of consciousness in TNG's Emergence, it is an emergent property.

JemCheeta wrote:Either way, I have to read this book. In fact, your quoting habit has introduced me to a multitude of books I have to read! and shows I have to see! and movies I have to watch!

Glad to be of service. I hope the above was to your liking.

Posted: **Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:44 pm**

Avatar wrote: What about the fact that we select the experiences we have? Or at least, we select how we experience them? If this is true, couldn't one say that in effect, we determine how we will make our future choices, based on our choice to experience something in a particular way? And that choice leads to experience, which may determine our all following choices. If determinism supercedes free will, perhaps we are the determinators in the end.

How do we select the experiences we have? By making choices that lead to those experiences happening. Or if you mean that we can choose to view them in a different way than someone else viewing the very same experience (for example one person thinks that Bush winning the election was a good thing while another thinks it was bad), then our experiences give us the ability to form opinions on the first place.

That's not to say that we are not the determinors though. Two people could have the exact same experiences all through their life but still make different decisions. How? Because it's not only experience that determines your actions. The nature of the human body also factors in here. No brain is built in the same way, so how should we expect everyone to respond in the same way to the same stimuli?
I suppose what I'm saying is that there is a margin for choice outside of experience, which is provided by the individual. However, that doesn't make it free will, the brain is still bound by the laws of physics.

Free will and determinism may not be mutually exclusive. Just because you make the choice you had to make, doesn't mean you didn't make the choice yourself. If it wasn't you then who was it? Don't your experiences belong to you? You went round collecting them up, so you must have some kind of responsibility for what they do.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:26 am**

Nathan wrote:Free will and determinism may not be mutually exclusive. Just because you make the choice you had to make, doesn't mean you didn't make the choice yourself. If it wasn't you then who was it? Don't your experiences belong to you? You went round collecting them up, so you must have some kind of responsibility for what they do.

Very good man, very good indeed. I think I can go with that, or at least be persuaded more in that direction. Perhaps we can't have determinism, in the sense that you mean at least, without having free will as well.

And the same works in reverse too I guess.

--Avatar