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Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:20 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
burgs66 wrote:I don't believe that Linden wants to use wild magic. She is extremely uncomfortable using it, even though she has demonstrated tremendous facility with it.
What are your, and anyone else's!, thoughts on her difficulty in using the Wild Magic?
She seems to have much more trouble with it now as compared to the 2nd Chron.
She mentions some reasons herself but they seem pretty weak to me.
Even Hile Troy, who had no familiarity with any type of "Power" instantly activated the wild magic as soon as he touched it at the end of TIW.
Linden has a lot more familiarity with it.
It's true, she never used it to blast apart an Ur-Vile wedge but, come on!
I was hoping to see someone actively use it for some good for a change.
I thought she of all people could use it in that fashion.
TC was always "numb" to it's dangers, she's not.
But then again it's only been a few days.
And WG does "destroy peace"....
And the Staff itself my be impeding her WM ability.
But in the WGW she was pretty confident that she could of healed the tree that Findail and Vain destroyed with WM.
SO MANY QUESTIONS!!
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:38 pm
by burgs
Hmm. Good questions.
I guess I'm going to postpone reading something else and reread Runes. It took one day before, but I doubt I'll zoom through it quite so quickly this time around.
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:09 pm
by aliantha
Linden's comments on her inability -- or reluctance -- to use the ring started to sound a lot like Covenant's objections to using it. "I don't know how it works," or words to that effect, rang an especially familiar bell. And it struck me as odd, too, considering that she had no trouble using the wild magic through Covenant in the 2d Chrons -- and was also able to wield it herself earlier in Runes. Curious.
burgs66, I'm going to have to go back and reread Runes a bit more slowly, too.
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:15 pm
by burgs
So let's think about that.
Covenant has used it, with tremendous effect. Linden has used it, to pinpoint precision.
Yet both claim not to understand how it works.
That speaks volumes.
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:35 am
by Funky Staff of Law
that was probably the one major thing I didn't get in this book - in the 2nd chrons the problem was that Linden could use the magic perfectly but she didn't want to take it from Covenant. But now she seems unable to use it without a worry what it will do - I'm sure that is not a problem she had before.
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:33 am
by ur-bane
Don't forget...at that point Covenant was a combination of wild magic and venom--a venom designed to increase Covenant's power to catastrophic levels. A venom designed to make the wild magic easily accessible to Covenant, and therefore easily accessible to Linden.
Linden still did not know how to call it up herself, she simply knew how to take the power, which was ever present, from Covenant.
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:37 pm
by Creator
ur-bane wrote:Don't forget...at that point Covenant was a combination of wild magic and venom--a venom designed to increase Covenant's power to catastrophic levels. A venom designed to make the wild magic easily accessible to Covenant, and therefore easily accessible to Linden.
Linden still did not know how to call it up herself, she simply knew how to take the power, which was ever present, from Covenant.
I agree. It's also consistent with her first experience with the ceasure. She seemed to have a an easier time leveraging Joan's power than her own access to White Gold.
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:43 pm
by aliantha
That makes sense. So while Covenant *is* the wild magic, Linden needs a tool to reach her power. In the 2nd Chrons, until she created the new Staff, her tool (at least at times) was Covenant. With him gone, she has trouble reaching the wild magic, even though she has the ring.
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:18 pm
by The Dreaming
Really, it was inevitable that Covenant re-enter the story. There is no law of life or death. It is very possible that covenant IS alive in the same way that Anele is. Of course, something tells me that it is something Foul wanted to happen, even though trying to manipulate Covenant has blown up in his face twice already.
I think that buried somewhere in the Gradual Interview SRD said that he saw no reason that Covenant couldn't be a hugely important part of the story in a world with no law of life and no law of death. Hell, there is no reason that Mhorim can't come and save the day, along with Elena, Foamfollower, and Bannor.
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:44 am
by tallan
The Dreaming wrote:It is very possible that covenant IS alive in the same way that Anele is.
Not exactly the same way, eh? Since Covenant actually died, and Anele... hasn't?
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:11 pm
by Creator
tallan wrote:The Dreaming wrote:It is very possible that covenant IS alive in the same way that Anele is.
Not exactly the same way, eh? Since Covenant actually died, and Anele... hasn't?
Well ... perhaps. Anele may have "died" in the womb when Hollian died and then was brought back to life by the sacrifice of Caer-Caveral.
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:12 pm
by Edge
Good point, Creator.
And as The Dreaming pointed out: with the laws of Life and Death broken... it's not that easy.
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:16 pm
by tallan
Oii. *blinks* I didn't think about that. Bad me. Wow. *wanders off to ponder*
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:57 pm
by The Dreaming
Yeah, I was thinking exactly what Creator said.
In White Gold Weilder, half the tragedy of Hollian's death is the death of her unborn son, And there is no way that the child lived, several days passed between her death and her rebirth, Sunder was just extremely messed up after she died and dragged her corpse around for a while.
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:01 pm
by duchess of malfi
The Dreaming wrote:Yeah, I was thinking exactly what Creator said.
In White Gold Weilder, half the tragedy of Hollian's death is the death of her unborn son, And there is no way that the child lived, several days passed between her death and her rebirth, Sunder was just extremely messed up after she died and dragged her corpse around for a while.
Oh, I have no doubts at all that Anele died at that point of time.
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:40 pm
by dlbpharmd
The latest Q&Q from the GI sheds some light on Covenant's death:
Lord Fool: I recently read the "Second Chronicles", and a question popped into my mind.
I always assumed that the accident by which Hile Troy was transported to the Land did eventually kill him. I can understand his body could've survived for the relatively short time he spend in the land as the Warmark. However, Troy didn't die in the Land until the "White Gold Wielder", after ten years' time in the "real world". I understood that when one dies in the "real world", he also dies in the Land (as happened to Thomas Covenant). Even though Troy as Caer-Cavernal wasn't entirely human, he wasn't Dead (as Covenant in the end). So, how was it possible for Troy's body to keep living for such a long period of time without his mind present?
Oh, by the way: thank you. The "Second Chronicles" were the most satisfying read; the Thomas Covenant saga has really rooted itself in my heart. I'm eagerly looking forward to the Last Chronicles - meanwhile, I've the time to check out your other works as well.
In the most literal sense, death in the "real world" for a character like Hile Troy, or Thomas Covenant, simply means that character can no longer return to his/her "real" life. But of course the implications go much farther (and are explored more fully in "The Last Chronicles"). Literal death in the Land as well is a significant possibility. But neither Troy nor Covenant actually died in the Land: rather they were transformed; became beings of an entirely different kind. In Troy's case, a series of transformations were involved, resulting in a new Forestal. In Covenant's case, the destruction of his mortality freed his spirit to support the Arch of Time (the fact that he retains some form of sentient identity is demonstrated by his ability to speak to Linden during her translation back to her "real" life). In both cases, huge powers were required to cause transformation instead of literal death. So: literal death in the "real world" does not *necessarily* impose extinction in the Land. In the "real world," Troy's body suffered literal death not long after his accident.
(11/21/2004)
Now, we all know that Covenant is the wild magic. SRD said sometime back that whenever anyone else uses wild magic, then Covenant must support that use - either consciously (as with Troy's attempt to rescue Elena) or sub-consciously (Linden's use of wild magic to heal.)
So see if this makes sense: Covenant supported Foul's use of wild magic, either consciously or sub-consciously, the result of which was the transformation of Covenant into a being of pure wild magic.
Re: The Ending... Was that really...
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:47 pm
by mickwalker
First Mark Tuvor wrote:Thomas Covenant? Who is it? What does he want? Is he back from the dead?
he has been moved forward in time by a fall
Re: The Ending... Was that really...
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:36 pm
by I'm Murrin
mickwalker wrote:First Mark Tuvor wrote:Thomas Covenant? Who is it? What does he want? Is he back from the dead?
he has been moved forward in time by a fall
Probably not. If Donaldson does that, he had
better have a good explanation for it.
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:54 am
by Iryssa
One thing I have to say...when Donaldson wrote: "The other
stranger was unmistakeably Thomas Covenant" I think that the word "unmistakeably" was Donaldson's way of saying "no, I'm not gonna get you this excited and then tell you that it was actually Roger...Linden just
thought it was Covenant." Donaldson is, I think, a very precise writer...he wouldn't have put that word in there if he wanted us to doubt that it was Covenant. I think, like a lot of people seem to, that what we'll have to worry about is what Covenant will be
like.
Funky Staff of Law wrote:that was probably the one major thing I didn't get in this book - in the 2nd chrons the problem was that Linden could use the magic perfectly but she didn't want to take it from Covenant. But now she seems unable to use it without a worry what it will do - I'm sure that is not a problem she had before.
Maybe she now really understands the might of the white gold, and is afraid of it...or, rather, afraid of what could happen with the misuse of it...Covenant warned her about using it; that would be enough to make anyone nervous.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:50 pm
by Revan
Very good points all!
Another question I want answered is; Why didn't Thomas show up before now? I assume it has something to do with the removal of the Staff of Law. Because Covenant wanted Linden to find it. But why would moving the Staff enable Covenant to come back to life?