The Oath of Peace

Post by **Landwaster** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:22 am

Well he mightn't have been above the Law, but he was above the full extent of the people's application of the Law.

TC was poorly served by the people's refusal to properly judge him. He needed a bit of discipline, really, and probably craved it. In the real world, people stayed out of his road and let him do whatever he wanted, they just stayed clear. if it wasn't for his imperitive need of self-discipline to stay alive, he'd have no need of self-discipline at all.

TC actually seemed to be questing for guilt. Please treat me as though I am wrong, when I am wrong. "Or I Shall Sell My Soul For Guilt". "You're The First Person I've Met Who Isn't Afraid Of Me". I'm drawing comparisons now to Helen Keller as portrayed by Patti Duke in the Miracle Worker (movie seen recently). Some sort of authority is required in all cases. Even if its only the fact that your hand hurts when you bruise it.

TC didn't even have that, another sense of loss for him. So he craved accountability. He almost seemed to be pushing the envelope as far as he could in an attempt to extract some repercussions.

This was a man in dire need.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:40 am

Landwaster wrote:Well he mightn't have been above the Law, but he was above the full extent of the people's application of the Law.

realistically yes .. i guess .. but even though the people of the Land respected and no doubt feared the white gold and his possession of it .. TC clearly wouldnt have challenged them with it to protect himself .. in the early books he didnt even know its power .. let alone how to use it.

Had the people of the Land addressed his crime against Lena, even though TC clearly didnt want to address it himself .. and was afraid of being found out in the beginning .. even though he was desperate to deny the reality of this new world .. ultiamtely i believe he would have accepted such a process.

L wrote:TC was poorly served by the people's refusal to properly judge him. He needed a bit of discipline, really, and probably craved it. In the real world, people stayed out of his road and let him do whatever he wanted, they just stayed clear. if it wasn't for his imperitive need of self-discipline to stay alive, he'd have no need of self-discipline at all.

yes the people did refuse to deal with TC's actions once they found out what he had done, but before this was known, the people of the Land did not balk testing him .. as in the high wood test the woodhelvin subjected him to regardless of what he may have been.

L wrote:TC actually seemed to be questing for guilt.

TC wasnt on a quest for guilt .. he possessed that in infinite quantity .. he was on a quest for some sort of redemption imho ..

L wrote:he craved accountability .

yes he did .. and its easy to understand what drove that desire. TC was a man of integrity .. he had done something so abhorent to his personal value system .. so unethical and vile .. that getting away with it did not accord with his own personal sensibilties

.. which if he was an unethical or immoral man he would have not been tortured by this in the least bit.

Post by **Landwaster** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:52 am

Agreed on all counts, only one which leaves me with need to say more is this :

Skyweir wrote:
L wrote:TC actually seemed to be questing for guilt.
TC wasnt on a quest for guilt .. he possessed that in infinite quantity .. he was on a quest for some sort of redemption imho ..

I suppose what I really meant to say was that he craved validation of his guilt. He considered himself very guilty, but he just wanted to be treated as guilty as well. Very toxic train of thought. On the other hand, he considered himself impotent (in terms of powerlessness), and also considered at times that guilt was the source of power. I think he said once that innocence is impotence. So there's a paradox there. Perhaps he felt the need to be guilty, the need to feel guilty, but there was a hole in the process while in the Land because they wouldn't treat him that way.

Seemed to me that he had higher respect for Atiaran, who was p'ed off at him, than he had for those that thought he was just sweetness and light. Blokes like Foamfollower, on the other hand, frustrated him but were endearing to him, because he for instance just waved away accountability with a quick 'that's not important in this circumstance' sort of attitude. He respected that, too. SHFF was the philosopher of the troupe, and was more meritorious in his judgements. That wasn't lost on TC.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:06 am

validation for his guilt? .. yes maybe he did .. but he wanted this from others .. from his peers ..

I agree with what you're saying actually .. his guilt was tortured and useless as guilt is. I liked how SRD made TC react as one would expect of someone who had done what he had done .. not want to face up to his actions.

It took TC some time to face up to what he had done .. and then he went totally overboard in his quest for some degree of penance if you will

His feelings of guilt lead him to his penitent state .. a state of desiring to be accoutable and face whatever music he would have to face ..

but after that .. his guilt just lead him to self-flagilation .. and bitter self hatred ..

but in the grand scheme of things i wonder if he would have sacrificed himself for this strange world if he hadnt felt these things .. and thus hadnt raped Lena that partially instigated this quest for retribution and ultimate peace.

Post by **[Syl]** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:14 am

Yep, that's all pretty much what I wanted to say. The only thing I currently feel is important to mention is that I used the capital L in law intentionally. I know I won't convince anybody that the important reality is the Land as a creation of TC, however...

Say you had a nuclear bomb with a dead man's trigger in your possession as well as some Star Wars satellite death ray capable of targeting anyone, anywhere at will. Let's also say you don't feel like paying your taxes. What would your government do? In this sense alone is Covenant above the law.

Law, though... the wild white magic. For one thing, it comes from beyond the Arch of Time, so isn't exactly subject to the Law. It's chaos. Chaos can't be bound by Law or it isn't chaos. Basically, Covenant has diplomatic immunity as far as Law is concerned.

If you tie this back in to the Land as delusion and the attempt to rejoin humanity, it gets closer to what I was trying to say at first. We talk about the rape a lot, but I'm not sure if we've talked about the symbolism of it much.

I'm reminded of Jack (Norton) in Fight Club. "I wanted to destroy something beautiful." In order to survive with leprosy and without Joan, Covenant had to kill something beautiful within himself. Call it hope, call it fantasy, call it extraneous.

"We have beauty, too. We call it scenery."

This is really what Covenant lost, and it's what he has to regain before he can master Despite. Nothing else, nothing but himself, can help him or damn him.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:29 am

Syl, I think you're definitely on to something! If anything beautiful remained within Covenant, it would be a constant reminder of how all of his life should be - but is not. He'd be in constant torment! So he has to get rid of it so he doesn't feel its pain. Maybe?

But I'll argue the points about Law and chaos. First, when Mhoram and Troy are at Gallows Howe, and they see the light approaching:

"Who comes? Have you made other bargains?"

"If I have," sang the Forestal, "they are no concern of yours. But these two pass on sufferance. They have not spoken to me. I allow them because the light they bear presents no peril to the trees - and because they hold a power which I must respect. I am bound by the Law of creation."

And when Troy started using the ring, Caerroil Wildwood said "No, I cannot permit this. It is a breaking of Law." There is a higher Law (or perhaps set of Laws) above the Land and it's "local" Laws.

And, at least according to the creation story Tamarantha tells, the Creator forged wild magic to protect the Arch from chaos.

KaosArcana · Post by **KaosArcana** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:32 am

Here's a thought.

Lena told Covenant that eveyrone took the Oath of Peace at
about age 15.

What would have happened to someone who refused to take
the Oath? Would he have been banished?

Post by **Landwaster** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:46 am

Good question. And how did they deal with social misfits who were under 15?

In fact, how did they deal with folks who DID take the oath, and transgressed?

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:42 am

SYL WROTE: Law, though... the wild white magic. For one thing, it comes from beyond the Arch of Time, so isn't exactly subject to the Law. It's chaos. Chaos can't be bound by Law or it isn't chaos. Basically, Covenant has diplomatic immunity as far as Law is concerned.

I'm not so sure about that... mainly no-one ever forced Covenant to do anything. Everything was left to his choice, except maybe for Atiaran leaving him with Foamfollower (which turned out to be one of the best things

People in the Land may have castigated him for his inactions here and there but there were those (Mhorham was one, Foamfollower was another) who saw that he was punishing himself enough.
Covenant heard the oath of peace but he was not under any mandate to follow it. He could have if he chose to. Whether or not he was from OUTSIDE the Land or not. It's like an alien intelligence that comes to our planet... are they bound by our laws? Should they be? Hmm am I agreeing with you Syl?? DUH!! I think it has a lot to do with the Lords' acknowlegement of Covenant's belief that it's all a dream (

they must've been thinking... "touched in the 'ead that one is).

SYL SAID: If you tie this back in to the Land as delusion and the attempt to rejoin humanity, it gets closer to what I was trying to say at first. We talk about the rape a lot, but I'm not sure if we've talked about the symbolism of it much.

I think this is why a lot of first time readers have a big problem with the rape is that they haven't begun to see the "symbolism" of it. They see the rape as personal and direct...right there and not for what it really is. Lena might as well been the personification of all that was good, pure, beautiful and joyful in the Land and Covenant's rape personifides Foul's desire to do the same, to destroy it all. I think we multi-re-readers have learned how to see beyond the immediacy of the rape and look at what it represents... hmm me thinks I know how to fit the rape into the movie script I'm working on...I'll let ya know when I get there.

SKYWEIR WROTE: validation for his guilt? .. yes maybe he did .. but he wanted this from others .. from his peers ..

Well at the time he couldn't. He's already carrying enough guilt when he first enters the Land (leprosy, Joan, isolation) So he felt that he deserves to be punished. This can be found in the book, when bad things happen to good people. Most of it is self-inflicted because they feel they deserved to be punished, ruined, whatever! But sometimes they can't do it to themselves...sometimes they can.

SKYWEIR SAID: I agree with what you're saying actually .. his guilt was tortured and useless as guilt is. I liked how SRD made TC react as one would expect of someone who had done what he had done .. not want to face up to his actions.

I dont' think guilt is ever useless unless it's unwarranted. A speaker I heard once said: People beat themselves up their whole lives for not having Social Skills that they were never taught.
Since the Land was a dream to TC he shouldn't have been feeling guilt. Because it's not real! But unfortunately it was. Trilock's cut on the back of his hands could've been what in the real world while he was in a coma? A scratch from a clumsy nurse, the insertion of an IV? He was feeling where he shouldn't been but it could've been the real world imposing itself into his dream. Dreams are supposed to be the manifestation of our subconciousness. We'll avoid guilt if we can or wallow into it. Since no-one in the Land was going to punish him for Lena and the Wraiths he chose to feel guilty and thus...

SKYWEIR AGAIN: It took TC some time to face up to what he had done .. and then he went totally overboard in his quest for some degree of penance if you will His feelings of guilt lead him to his penitent state .. a state of desiring to be accoutable and face whatever music he would have to face .. but after that .. his guilt just lead him to self-flagilation .. and bitter self hatred ..

Sure and that's the subconciousness working on the concious mind. His own values weren't being met and thus punishing himself by walking barefoot through Foul's winter and starving and all that. In a sense he paid for his crimes and his willingness to go do battle with Foul was in his mind retribution to it's fullest. I've been caught out in the woods during a bad snow-storm and was able to get back to the vehicle alive...the 3/4 mile hike in the dark, thigh deep snow with a white out was a terror and really draining physically as well as emotionally, I thought that my friends had just left me behind thinking I would catch up. They didn't count on the whiteout separating us when it did... I arrived btw just as they were coming out to search.
I gotten a wee taste of what Covenant went through. Not barefoot thank god but cold tired and hungry and hypothermic to boot. Not a nice place to be.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:04 am

i'm not exactly sure what you're saying Seafoam ..

but i am trying to get there

lol

I think i agree with most .. except ofcourse that i personally dont hold with guilt being useful .. i think that guilt is only useful if it leads you to some closure.

but if it is just torturous and self-plaguing as TC's guilt was to some degree .. it only serves as self-destructive and loses any sense of being productive.

Seafoam wrote:People beat themselves up their whole lives for not having Social Skills that they were never taught.

yep seems futile and un-productive really doesnt it? what purpose can beating yourself up about something you were never taught have?

beats me

the same goes for TC feeling guilt for his leperosy??!! astounding!! its not HIS FAULT .. nor was Joan leaving him or any of it .. so imho .. guilt is not the most appropriate or healthy response to his circumstances.

I think what you and syl have had to say about the symbolism of the rape is very interesting. Particularly what syl says about TC's drive to rid himself of anything beautiful .. yet he loved LA and did not rid himself of her .. even after his death .. he told her he would always be with her ..

Never wanting to let go of that one beautiful part of his life .. I think Lena's purity, her virginity could clearly represent the Lands purity and beauty. TC had not been in the Land long before he raped Lena to really experience all the beauty the Land had to offer.

but this analogy is really brilliant .. and I would be interested in developing it further ..

Post by **Landwaster** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:31 am

yeah he basically had to feel guilty about his leprosy because the alternative was to feel that it wasn't his fault and that would make him more wistful for as normal life and that would leave scratch marks under the door of the airplane loo

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:30 pm

danlo wrote: Wow --that was quite candid and soul baring, too say the least...I really think you would like Neverness and the 3 books that follow; The Broken God, The Wild and War in Heaven...

Post by **danlo** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:54 pm

Sorry! The weirdness above is the result of me editing my former post while not logged in. How I was able to do that at all is beyond me...but this and that both need to be deleted, thanks!

Post by **[Syl]** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:19 pm

About the White Gold representing chaos, or at least in part...

This power is a paradox, because Power does not exist without Law, and wild magic has no Law; and white gold is a paradox, because it speaks for the bone of life, but has no part of the Land. And he who wields white wild magic gold is a paradox for he is everything and nothing, hero and fool, potent, helpless and with the one word of truth or treachery he will save or damn the Earth because he is mad and sane, cold and passionate, lost and found.

I would say that that which is not bound by Law is chaos.

And since it is the nature of creating to desire perfection, the Creator devoted all himself to the task. First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be. And for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure.

It's not conclusive proof, but it's what I was basing that off of.

As for Covenant's guilt. Maybe it would seem irrational for someone to blame themself for getting leprosy, but I think its social conditioning. I don't know if I can speak for anybody else here, but I think the reason Covenant has such a pull to us (I mean, how many of us can really identify with having leprosy? None, I think) is that he represents the Outcast, either from a relationship or from society (where my fellow geeks at? hmm, wait, this is a message board on the internet about a fantasy book

). In some of my more down times in my young teenage years, I sometimes felt guilty about it. I learned not to, though, and I think Covenant had also by the time he let himself love Linden.

Post by **Skyweir** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:14 am

mmm .. thats a really good point .. and i think many can relate to why he felt 'guilt' ..

but we all i guess have to come to the same point of realises that guilt as an emotion if it fails to produce results .. is .. ummm ... unproductive

and self-destructive in its extreme condition.

as to the chaos theory

syl wrote: for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure.

how can whild magic be synonymous with "chaos" if it is utilised as the keystone to resist chaos?

Post by **[Syl]** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:41 pm

"Takes a thief to catch a theif" kind of paradox.

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:19 pm

mmm .. well possibly .. but .. its too easy an answer that doesn't really answer this particular conundrum

Tony Zbaraschuk · Post by **Tony Zbaraschuk** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:35 pm

Just found this thread. It's been a very interesting discussion, but I think you're missing something fundamental about the Oath of Peace and its interaction with Kevin's Lore.

It's in Mhoram's confrontation with Trell.

>Despair was not the only unlocking emotion.

It's not that the Lords had foresworn only the negative emotions (though they may have thought that's what they were doing); by refusing to be ruled by passion, by refusing ever to surrender to it in any form, they had numbed themselves to the positive as well. They had foresworn the mastery of hate -- and with it had lost the passion of love. They had foresworn revenge and the urge to destroy -- and with it lost the passion of building. T

It's one of the oldest human errors: you try very hard to avoid one bad thing, and in the process you back into another. The Oath of Peace gave the Land a thousand years of peace, but it gave them a thousand years of stagnation too -- in the time it took them to half-learn the First Ward, the Old Lords had built the Staff and gotten all the way to discovering the Power of Command (recall "Damelon's Door" under Melenkurion Skyweir).

Some passion they have, but they refuse it. (I think that's the point of Prothall's sermon that Covenant runs away from) -- and without that culmination, they have only sterility.

Mhoram stands against Trell because of his love for Revelstone; it's his full passion released that lets him stop a Ritual of Desecration in its tracks. It's a combination of love for the Land, pure desperation, and hatred of the Ravers and the Despiser, that lets him destroy Satansfist in the end.

It's very, very dangerous -- he has no defenses left against despair. But equally, he has no limits to his hope, either -- to the frantic, desperate hope that somehow, someway, a nearly suicidal folly might distract Foul just long enough that Covenant can do something.

(And, indeed, it does -- when Elena turns away from destroying the Colossus to try and aid the Raver, her momentary inattention gives Triock one desperate action to break the ring out of her grasp and toss it back to Covenant, and it's his reclaiming of the Ring and destruction of the Staff that in turn re-lights the krill and gives Mhoram back the weapon he needs to slay the Raver.)

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:46 am

Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:It's very, very dangerous -- he has no defenses left against despair. But equally, he has no limits to his hope, either -- to the frantic, desperate hope that somehow, someway, a nearly suicidal folly might distract Foul just long enough that Covenant can do something.

(And, indeed, it does -- when Elena turns away from destroying the Colossus to try and aid the Raver, her momentary inattention gives Triock one desperate action to break the ring out of her grasp and toss it back to Covenant, and it's his reclaiming of the Ring and destruction of the Staff that in turn re-lights the krill and gives Mhoram back the weapon he needs to slay the Raver.)

Wow!! I can't believe I never looked at it exactly that way - Mhoram coming to the aid of Covenant, and Covenant returing the aid! I feel like a dope for never having seen the back-and-forth of it all!! They couldn't have done it better if they were in communication!

Post by **Forestal** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:21 pm

while that is true, i have to disagree with the comment:

Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:in the time it took them to half-learn the First Ward, the Old Lords had built the Staff and gotten all the way to discovering the Power of Command (recall "Damelon's Door" under Melenkurion Skyweir)

this is inaccurate, the old lords lived FAR FAR longer than the new lords did... its alot harder for people to continue the studies of their peers after death than it is for the same man or woman to continue their studies for longer.

its said that kevin lived centuries as normal men lived decades, that would mean if a man lived to a hundred, kevin would be a thousand years old...

so technically, the lords did what they did in the time it took kevin alone to live his life. factor in the other old lord, berek, damelon, loric... that could potentially be over 4 thousand years. compared to the new lords one thousand, and at the same time their being fettered by the OoP...

the new lords were not slow, they were just unable. theres a big difference.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Oath of Peace