Pro-Choice / Pro-Life Retread
Moderator: Fist and Faith
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
Sorry Prebe, inside joke.
I've got issues with IVF. I've known several people who have gone that route, and all of them, without exception, have lost at least one of the babies. Aside from the issues I think you're talking about, I'll add that our IV technology is not where it needs to be.
For the moment, I'm thumbs-down on IVF.
I've got issues with IVF. I've known several people who have gone that route, and all of them, without exception, have lost at least one of the babies. Aside from the issues I think you're talking about, I'll add that our IV technology is not where it needs to be.
For the moment, I'm thumbs-down on IVF.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Furls Fire
- Lord
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- Location: Heaven
Well said caam!!!caamora wrote:Again, I'm joining the argument late.
Self-awareness has little to do with life or abortion. I know some adults who have yet to achieve self-awareness!
Fact of the matter is that a woman is not born with two hearts, two brains, two spinal cords, etc. If she wants to alter her own body, then she should be allowed to. That is what plastic surgery is for. However, in the case of abortion, she is not altering her own body but destroying another.
If she has CHOICE, then she should choose not to get pregnant. In this day and age, there is not excuse for an unwanted pregnancy.
Abortion should be allowed in cases of rape, incest, danger to mother. But, sadly, the majority of abortions are not for these reasons.
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
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ur-bane
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Location: United States of Andelain
LM, isn't quality of life different from life?Lord Mhoram wrote:caamora,
On the contrary, self-awareness, or sentience, has everything to do with life. No sentience=little to no quality of life.
The argument for or against abortion isn't about "when does a human fetus exibit a quality of life", but "when does a human fetus exhibit life?"
Not to mention the fact that what kind of quality of life will a dead fetus hope to have?
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
Do you realize this thread was started 25-1/2 hours ago, we're on page 8, and no one's gotten bent yet? This has gotta be a record.
As I said earlier, quality of life is so subjective, I don't think it has any place in the discussion.
As I said earlier, quality of life is so subjective, I don't think it has any place in the discussion.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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ur-bane
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 3496
- Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: United States of Andelain
Nor do I.
The question is:
When is the fetus a human life?
I believe it is at conception. A fetus is not a dead thing growing inside its mother that suddenly gains "life" at 12 weeks. It is alive all along.
As soon as qualifiers/subjectivity enter the equation, the question of murder extends beyond the womb.
The question is:
When is the fetus a human life?
I believe it is at conception. A fetus is not a dead thing growing inside its mother that suddenly gains "life" at 12 weeks. It is alive all along.
As soon as qualifiers/subjectivity enter the equation, the question of murder extends beyond the womb.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
And that's what it comes down to, isn't it? I honestly think that all the qualifiers are there to help people accept that it's OK to kill your child because you didn't want to wrap your rascal.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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ur-bane
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 3496
- Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: United States of Andelain
Exactly. The dehumanization allows for an "out."
It is actually (IMO) enabling irresponsible behavior.
It is actually (IMO) enabling irresponsible behavior.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
Careful ur-bane, that kind of talk brands you as an extremist.
Even though you're 100% correct.
I can't remember if I ever mentioned the girl I knew in high school that had 4 abortions by her senior year. It was practically a joke for her.
Even though you're 100% correct.
I can't remember if I ever mentioned the girl I knew in high school that had 4 abortions by her senior year. It was practically a joke for her.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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ur-bane
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 3496
- Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: United States of Andelain
She should have been required to have a hysterectomy. That goes beyond irresponsibility. That is utter disregard for life. Extreme, certainly. 
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
The funny(?) thing was, very, very few people looked down on her because of it.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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onewyteduck
- The Gap Into Spam
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Essentially I agree with you Camm but I want to point out that sometimes unwanted pregnancies occur even when precautions are taken. The only form of contraception that is 100% effective is abstention, including the pill, tubal ligations, and vasectomy. Plus, the pill can be rendered less effective by the use of other medications, particularly antibiotics and all too frequently, women aren't aware of this.caamora wrote:Again, I'm joining the argument late.
Self-awareness has little to do with life or abortion. I know some adults who have yet to achieve self-awareness!
Fact of the matter is that a woman is not born with two hearts, two brains, two spinal cords, etc. If she wants to alter her own body, then she should be allowed to. That is what plastic surgery is for. However, in the case of abortion, she is not altering her own body but destroying another.
If she has CHOICE, then she should choose not to get pregnant. In this day and age, there is not excuse for an unwanted pregnancy.
Abortion should be allowed in cases of rape, incest, danger to mother. But, sadly, the majority of abortions are not for these reasons.
I'm not saying that it happens often, but it does happen. Just my two cents.
Be kind to your web-footed friends, for a duck may be somebody's mother.
This is true Ducky, but failed contraception is a tiny portion of abortions.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Furls Fire
- Lord
- Posts: 4872
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:35 am
- Location: Heaven
Well, for what it's worth, Stevie was a complete surprise because I had been on the pill...obviously, something wasn't working right!!! But I'm so happy to have him! He's an added much joy to our lives.
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
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Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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Heh. Fertile Furls - even the pill can't stop her!! 
Hey, don't you people have jobs?!?!? I come back from work, and there's four more pages?!?!? Oy, let's see...
-Here's what I think. A human being changes immensely throughout life. Growth in size; fusion of bones; chemical/hormonal changes that cause profound physical and emotional changes; etc. In my view, a human's lifespan covers all the changes, from conception to death. Fertilized egg - Embryo - Fetus - Infant - Baby - Toddler - Child - Pubescent - Young Adult - Adult - Middle Aged Adult - Senior Citizen - Reeeaaaly Old Person - and any other categories I may have missed. I don't agree with any reasons I've ever heard for not considering the time in the womb as part of a human's life.
-caam, excellent post!
-Someone brought up a great point. A fetus' DNA is its own; entirely unique from the mother's. I can't view that as just another part of the mother's body.
Hey, don't you people have jobs?!?!? I come back from work, and there's four more pages?!?!? Oy, let's see...
-Here's what I think. A human being changes immensely throughout life. Growth in size; fusion of bones; chemical/hormonal changes that cause profound physical and emotional changes; etc. In my view, a human's lifespan covers all the changes, from conception to death. Fertilized egg - Embryo - Fetus - Infant - Baby - Toddler - Child - Pubescent - Young Adult - Adult - Middle Aged Adult - Senior Citizen - Reeeaaaly Old Person - and any other categories I may have missed. I don't agree with any reasons I've ever heard for not considering the time in the womb as part of a human's life.
-caam, excellent post!
-Someone brought up a great point. A fetus' DNA is its own; entirely unique from the mother's. I can't view that as just another part of the mother's body.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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Prebe
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Location: People's Republic of Denmark
Cail: Is the reason you oppose IVF the ditching of the surplus zygotes (or the murder of the unwanted babys as you will have it)?
And would you allow abortion in case of a provable failed contraceptive? I know it is a relatively rare phenomenon, but I feel that the sharp lines you use to draw things should encompass this eventuality as well.
Yes. I do have a job, but ironically I am on paternity leave, looking after my zygote
And would you allow abortion in case of a provable failed contraceptive? I know it is a relatively rare phenomenon, but I feel that the sharp lines you use to draw things should encompass this eventuality as well.
Cail wrote:The funny(?) thing was, very, very few people looked down on her because of it.
Fist:The Bible wrote:Judge not, lest you yourself be judged.
Yes. I do have a job, but ironically I am on paternity leave, looking after my zygote
Other than the reason I listed, yes, that's a factor as well.Prebe wrote:Cail: Is the reason you oppose IVF the ditching of the surplus zygotes (or the murder of the unwanted babys as you will have it)?
No, I would not allow abortions in cases of failed contraception. I have seven cousins, who my aunt refers to as; pill, rubber, IUD, rhythm, diaphragm, vasectomy, and planned.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
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Got any data to back up the claim that late-term abortions are common? So far, I've only been able to find a 10-year out of date piece claiming that late-term abortions make up under 10% of all abortions.Cybrweez wrote:I think it is carried out late, past 5 months, and that pretty often. How late does the pregnancy have to be for stem cell research?Avatar wrote: ...abortion is rarely carried out that late...
Care about others rights? Or are willing (and indeed eagre) to impose their standards on others? Not to mention the fact that the quote implies that only a religious people can be moral, which is far from the truth.Cybrweez wrote:John Adams once said, "Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
I think that means a people that cares about others' rights more than their own. I'm not a fan of today's fixation on "my rights", to the exclusion of what's best for "us". In this case, a woman's "right to choose" taking precedence over a baby's life.
Oh man, there are so many things to mention, and this topic is going so fast...
Interesting to see that the percentages of Danich and American abortions are about the same, given, as you probably realised, that Denmark has only about 4.5million people, while the US has nearly 300 million.
I think though that it is not necessarily a mistake to include considerations regarding the quality of life, as Lord Mhoram suggests. Although I'll agree that defining those standards is a slippery subjective slope.
And while we may rationalise away the adoption/abortion issue by saying that two wrons don't make a right, what about cases such as this where "righting" a supposed wrong makes another wrong worse?
Cail-- What about the question I posed earlier? Would you permit abortion in the case of handi-capped (mentally or physicaly) foetus'?
What else?...
Oh yeah, I think that the distinction between "life" and "human life" and "person" remain central to the debate.
But in the end, what it really comes down to, and leaving aside all other questions, is that I believe that the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the unborn child. Especially if we're talking about undeveloped foetus' or embryo's.
While I'll certainly accept that those cells can become a person, because they can of course, they're not a person yet and I'm of the opinion that what we never get, we can't miss.
Great topic as usual folks.
--Avatar