Kevin's Watch

Baradakas wrote:Better to say, "God's will doesn't change, but his Plan can and does." Imagine if you will, a gigantic tapestry, ever changing, shuttles and looms constantly making changes and alterations in order to keep the tapestry strong. It is our free will that forces God to make changes, but it is still perfect. The term imperfection does not necessarily mean "lack of perfection", but instead "perfection of imperfection". Is it God's "fault" that we do not always follow His Word? Sure, in a manner of speaking. He allowed us free will, so that we can make mistakes, and hopefully, learn from them. But does that mean He will allow us to ruin His Plan? Of course not, though He might have to make some changes in order to keep the Plan moving along...

I think that's a fantastic paragraph!

And how do you reconcile the validity of the 10 commandments with the idea that the new testament supposedly "overthrew" the old, as many have argued?

Only Catholic-based faiths (for the most part) believe that the NT did away with the OT, and thier reasoning isn't just flawed, it's ludicrous. When asked by a young man how he might assure his place in heaven, does Jesus say, "follow my teachings"? NO. He says, "Follow the Ten Commandments." When starving in the desert, and Lucifer tempts Him, does Jesus say, "I'll make my own damn food"? NO. He says, "Man lives not by bread alone, but by EVERY word of God." And finally, have a look at my signature, which is also a NT quote, "Faith without works is dead." In other words, believe in God all you want, but unless you follow His laws, you're screwed anyway...

Thanks Fist, I was inspired at the time...

-B

Good post Barad. Of course, I have to ask if that means we should be stoning adulteresses and not wearing blended fabrics...

--A

Just as easily ask "should we eat pork, shellfish etc..". The answer would have to be, "Do you know what you're eating?"

Not sure I follow there...

--A

Sorry, I was being unneccesarily obtuse. And apparently I can't spell right now either.

What I mean is, we should always weigh the consequences of our reactions...

Well, while I agree with that entirely, (not that many seem to do that weighing), I'm still ot sure how it relates to the question.

Unless you're suggesting that if actions do not have negative consequences, then whether they are law or not does not make a difference?

In other words, if the consequences are negative, then that is the "crime" not ignoring the law?

--A

Sorry, Av, I didn't mean to let this thread sit idle. Let me try again. Let's say you're a woman. (No booing, please, this is hypothetical. ) You have just seen the most gorgeous man and you are thinking of cheating on your husband with him. A week before, however, you watched your best childhood friend get bludgeoned to death with large rocks for doing the exact same thing. How likely are you to cheat now? That's what I meant about "Do you know what you are eating?" I suppose "Do you know what you are getting into?" or "Do you realize the potential consequences of your actions?" would have worked better, but all that talk of forbidden seafood marred my otherwise focused concentration. I miss shrimp....

I will (grudgingly) admit that some laws in the OT were not divinely inspired. The reference to blended fabrics, for instance, was obviously based on some form of trade sanction of the time. After all, what does God care what my shirt is made of? (Damn, that was awfully close to blasphemy. I'll be keeping an eye on you Av. )

Anyway, I should mention that I am a firm believer in corporal punishment for certain crimes. Murderers should be put to death, rapists and child molesters should lose the equipment that allowed them to commit the crime in the first place, etc. Yet there are certain laws in the Bible that make little or no sense, and I can usually chalk those up to some form of political or economical belief that was slipped in at the time by enthusiastic priests...

All right, Av. Your turn.

-B

You can leave it lying idle as long as you like, I'm always here when you take it up again.

I pretty much agree with that first paragraph still...it makes perfect sense. And that's what I was getting at when I suggested that it is the potentially negative consequences that make something a "crime." In the sense of, if you do X, Y bad thing will happen to you."

That doesn't in itself make X a bad thing though, or wrong. Rather it means applying common sense for your own preservation...don't steal if you don't want your hand cut off in other words.

The action of adultery say, is not bad in any way in and of itself. It is bad in terms of a cohesive society though, and obviously its bad in terms of destroying the trust of your existing relationship. But that's all. It's bad in terms of the consequences as objective effects of the cause.

So the shellfish prohibition for example, now that makes sense in terms of consequences. Anybody can see how dying from eating it means its bad. But it's not the eating of it that's bad, it's the result that's bad. Hence, in modern times, no bad result equals no sin.

And I don't see why that reasoning shouldn't always apply.

As you yourself said, why should god care what shirt you wear? I'm pretty sure he doesn't, and I'm positive that to ask that isn't blasphemous, even from a Christian point of view.

I'm not opposed to the death penalty, depending on the circumstances that is, and I agree with the good Sgt that your suggested punishment for rapists etc. just isn't enough. They should probably be executed too.

But if we're agreeing that some laws make little or no sense, and that they were almost certainly influenced by prevailing social/political/economic/technological circumstances, then we have nothing left to disagree on.

Religion, the church, faith, it's all its own biggest enemy. I was chatting to a Muslim once on a flight to Cairo, and he told me that they way Islam is meant to work is that there isn't supposed to be anyone or anything between you and god. I liked that.

As soon as you introduce the human control element into any religion, people are going to twist it for their own purposes, even if they believe those purposes to be in the best interests thereof. In the long run, they rarely are.

Good post Barad. You better be careful...I probably count as "evil influences" or something.

--A