Kevin's Watch

I think Borillar26 is not realizing that Covenant's rape of Lena occurred under circumstances so extreme as to not be possible in the real world. Therefore someone saying that they can understand what happened in this story is not neccessarily saying they would EVER understand it in any cicumstances in reality.
Don't foget all the circumstances that led up to the rape. The loss of everthing he held dear AND the loss of everything he took for granted-simple human contact/conversation/courtesy/etc.- and the relentless desolation of what was left of his existence. Also(and this is very important) Covenant had an above average imagination(in ability and intensity) and he was forced to COMPLETELY strangle this vivd imagination that inspired his novel and subsequent manuscript( which he burned). He had NO ROOM for a hope for a cure or romantic thoughts of his his past life/other fufilling existences or even just SOMEONE(anyone, even just some guy-a buddy) being his friend, just befriending him-just somone, anyone to give him SOME sympathy, ANY sympathy or pity on his wretched condition.
Now, outrageously, he was joining everyone else (his wife, friends, strangers) in betrayal using the two most dangerous(to him) weapons, false hope and imagination, to do a suicide or mercy killing or worst of all-killing, murdering himself off. Subconsciously( he suspected) he was realizing/ agreeing with those heartless bastards that he was a blight on existence that needed to be wiped out. It didn't matter that he wasn't evil/corrupt he must be bad or he wouldn't have been punished like that and just being a leper made him evil even if he "wasn't''. It didn't matter that he was fundamentally innocent, too bad, just having leprosy made him guilty the same way an alligator's nature makes its presence in your backyard in Florida evil- it has no evil intent or no intent at all but just having the nature it does makes its presence intolerable when your dog and kids and wife(well mabey not your wife) might be lunch. So Covenant was scared he might be realizing that he would not only condemn himself if he were them but might join them in condemning someone else if he was himself without leperosy and someone else had it. Of course SRD more than hinted that all this paranoia was wrong and unecessary- that the Land was real. But Covenant was far too embittered and cynical to believe any of this was real. All of this(his desolate life, and apparent cracking/betrayal of his mind) along with the shock of being in the Land, his (impossible) healing, the acceptance(and even hero worship), the elavtion of sensations ABOVE normal when they had been below normal, the threat of Lord Foul and the (ultra) vividness of the Land pushed( yes, uncontrolably, INEXORABLY) Covenant into the madness that caused him to rape Lena. Now, both SRD (and I) love fantasy BUT WE DON'T THINK IT'S REAL and at the risk of speaking for him I don't believe it's possible for extreme enough conditions to exist in reality that would make someone commit an act without ANY capability to resist. THE THING THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING IS COVENANT WOULD NEVER DO SUCH A THING IN HIS RIGHT MIND NOT WITH A GUN TO HEAD, NOT TO SAVE HIS OWN LIFE. Imagine someone has encased(trapped) your body in a metal exoskeleton against your will and remote controlled it to force you to pick up a knife and stab a mother of four to death and you stuggled against it every second and even had an injury like a torn tendon or ligament to prove it. If it was known or found out or proven that that was what truly happened no one would blame you and you would even be looked at as kind of a victim yourself, but if the exoskeleton was under your clothes and hidden by them people would think you were an evil, murderous devil. You would still know for yourself that you were innocent. It wasn't that cut and dry in Covenant's case(for himself as well as the reader). Also imagine how BAD you'd feel seeing (COMMITTING) that murder close up even though you know it wasn't your fault at all. Covenant didn't have that luxury, he always felt his culpability very keenly and THAT is the genius of SRD, he made Covenant the ULTIMATE victim. Not only is his life ruined and he physically corrupted but now he was made to act / be evil in ways he would never choose to be. He's also a victim in that there is no possible way to relate what happened to him/his background of torment/disease to a group of people that only know health and contentment and how it could cause something like this. Don't forget the rape also anchored Covenant and caused and enabled him to get a grip on himself. Before that he was completely dismissive of the Lord Foul and the Land( remember the, ''Forget it'', he he threw Lord Foul when he was first brought to the Land? and pretty much held them in disregard.
So to answer Borillar26 no, the rape the was not a colossal blunder but a stroke of genius. It was key on several crucial levels of the plot and to setting up Covenant as both the ultimate victim and most misunderstood(part of his victimization) character I have ever read.
Let me also take this oppurtinty to ease Paradox's mind about disrespecting my posts. I didn't feel he was disrespecting my posts at all or that they could be disrespected. As much of a blowhard as I am I don't take myself that seriously. If he had said I didn't get one thing right and that I had WAY too much time on my hands I would have just laughed. It was was the seemingly flippant and causual way he SEEMED to joke about the rape that I reacted to although I would hardly describe it as ''violent''.
I don't think some things like rape or the Holocaust should be joked about. I don't recall any people joking about the rape or murder of a friend or family member(or any victim either).
I would like to make one more point about the crude humor-this is a public forum and people should treat it respectfully as such. It is not anyone's living room and while most people feel free to express themselves in front of a group they know they would not just say anything to a group/person they just met. Anyone is free to watch an extremely crude and raunchy comedy but no one would or has the right to set up the vcr on a street corner where children, and minors,and old ladies and anyone who would be offended could see/hear it. Mothers and anybody would not seek out such material but go out of their way to avoid it should not be subjected to such material. No adults in their right mind would be down a supermarket aisle discussing in graphic detail a crude comedy they saw with a mother with two swall children and a young teenager standing right next to them. This forum is as pulic as a street corner and should be treated as such. Anybody- children, minors, people who would just be offended will come across the material we post and it's not fair to them.
Now understand, I'm not talking about IDEAS. If someone is offended by ideas and opinions that is too bad. For instance, I wasn't offended about your opinion that absolutes are to be avoided and even dangerous but I completely disagree. I think it is relativism that is very dangerous. You take certain things and make them relative and it is very dangerous and is inviting disaster. For instance, in WHAT way is rape, or muder(not killing in say self defense) realtive??? There are definitely absolutes and rape(especially stranger rape which is cut and dry) and murder are two of them. Rape and murder are ALWAYS, ABSOLUTELY WRONG!

okay, i concede.. you have way too much time in your hands..

oh yeah, when i said that rape is relative i didn't mean that the eveil of the act is relative. I meant that the forgiveness is relative.. we can't really say whther or not we forgive someone until we have been in their shoes...

oh yeah, an also have way too much time on my hands and i have ADD.. killer combination...

I have one simple question.. I know that he rape is crucial to everything else that happens to covenant in the Land, but would it be wise to skip it like they did in Fantasy Bedtime Hour?

( This has been often discussed in the Thomas Covenant Movie Forum. )

I don't think the rape should be skipped over but it should be done as clearly and unambigously as possible- showing Covenant's unavoidable breakdown and descent into madness. This must be made VERY clear- that he was fairly well compelled to lash out and it must be made equally clear that he is convinced these charcters AREN'T real and he thinks he is just attacking the dream/hallucination being used to try to destoy him(by his own self/sunconscious no less).

I agree with DarkOverlord. You're out of line, Paradox. Apology accepted, but I hope you learn not to do it again--what's all fun and games for you isn't necessarily for everyone else. From your willingness to joke about rape, i'm going to rpesume that you're male. Try to remember that some subjects are less vivid to you because they aren't *your* life--being a man insulates you form much of the world's ugliness. Other people aren't so fortunate, and that kind of joke suggests that you don't take rape seriously.

Plus, obsession with schlong size is a meme that jsut needs ot go away and die. I know people use it ironically rmoe foten than not, but it's not that funny and it's still too much a real thing. If I had my way, people wouldn't refer to it at all.

It was a joke, seriously, not out of line at all.

This forum is supposed to be fun.

OK I here what you all are saying. My point however isn't about forgiving Convenant or even trying to understand him. I guess what I was trying to get at was did it really have to be rape? Couldn't SRD written something else in its place that would have carried the story just as well?

My whole problem with it is the scene turns people off to the story. Everyone finds rape so objectionable that when they read up to it, it becomes a giant read block. If you can't get pass it you miss out on what's beautiful about the books (and there's alot that's beautiful.) It's like having a magnificent painiting that just takes your breadth away, but then off to one corner you got some grotesque graffiti. You want to hang the painting up for everyone to see, but so many people get offended by the graffiti that they miss out on the rest of the painitng. I suppose I'm trying to PG the book so that it's more palatable to the general populous.

I've read a few books or rather partially read a few books whose characters so aggravated me that I just chucked the book out. I don't want all protagonists to be angels, but it would be nice to have a hero you can actually admire.

Are you saying it's because of the stigma and repulsion that rape engenders (even more so than murder- a murderer is not even looked on as being as weird/deviant/repulsive as a rapist). So what your asking is- could SRD had Covenant commit assault or even murder? The answer is NO! - 1) because of how crucial it is to the plot and 2) because SRD was going for MAXIMUM effect in making COVENANT a VICTIM so he wanted him pushed to do the WORST THING thing he wouldn't have EVER done in his right mind, NOT WITH A GUN TO HIS HEAD, NOT TO SAVE HIS OWN LIFE(would he have done this in his right mind). At least go back and my last post.

My two cents:

The rape scene is absolutely critical to the story line. I agree wholeheartedly with TDO - the circumstances that led to the Rape of Lena was brought about by conditions and emotions that are just not possible in our world. This was by design. I do not beleive TC would be capable of Rape in his Real world, were he able. certainly not prior to his Leprosy. I believe SRD was asking a question or making a statement with this scene: Can we be held accountable for our actions in a dream? Is This not the fundamental question of ethics ?

Because that is exactly what TC believed at the time: The Land wasnt real, Lena wasn't real, his cure wasn't real, nerves don't regenerate, Lepers are impotent, etc etc. The beggar set him up for this with his question. He was driven to do in the dream what he could never again do in RL when all of these paradoxes assaulted him: After years of impotence and numbness, he suddenly feels passion, Lust, Health and vigor, and he acts impulsively on those base emotions. And he pays the price. And he saves the Land. These are all connected, critical parts of the story.

[Aside: I do not remember where I saw this, so no link... but I read once that there have been studies which indicate up to 30% of men admitted that would commit rape against at least one person they currently knew, if they were guaranteed they would not be caught or identified as the raper. How horrifying is that?]

Back to TC -- Once TC made his bargain to live with the paradox of the Land, he felt very bad and tried to make atonement to Lena, and also did not try to hide the facts of his Rape of Lena when it was uncovered or asked but confronted his own actions when he had to.

Can it be forgiven? Basically, it is up to the victim; I assume some victims can forgive something like rape, some cannot. As a man, I cannot fully appreciate a woman's fear of Rape, nor her response to it once it happens.

IMHO It do not believe it is not possible or accurate to say what can or cannot be forgiven if you are not the victim. IMHO.

Warmark wrote:It was a joke, seriously, not out of line at all.

This forum is supposed to be fun.

I half agree. A joke in poor taste, but a joke nonetheless. If I think a joke is tasteless, I ignore it.

Incidentally, Fuzzy_Logic, though all new members are very welcome, it might be advisable to hold off on the "don't do it again" type of commands for the time being. There are some who would who take umbrage at receiving orders on forum conduct from a brand new member.

staying away from a subject just because some people may find it offensive kinda defeats the whole purpose of creating art

good point, despiser... And I also realized something.. I may joke about rape, And I may say that the rape is forgivable... but it is an act I would never wish on my daughter....

Heck, I used to think Trell and Triock were out of line since they violated their oath of peace, but I think that under those circumstances no oath would suffice...

But I guess that the rape scene is the reason why people do not have lukewarm feelings about the chrons... the chronicles are either loved or hated.. no one actually just likes them...

The rape can be a very big obstacle to overcome for a reader... but once he or she does, he or she ends up learning the lesson behind that rape...

Paradox says that because of the scene people either hate the book or love the book. So wouldn't that mean that if you eliminated the scene, more people would love the series and less would hate it. Isn't that something greatly desired. I'm not saying ban books or impose censorship. That's not my political view at all. But doesn't it just offend you to the very core that there are people out there who hate The Chornicles of Thomas Convenant. Wouldn't you prefer something beautiful and unflawed better than something damaged. A Land with the Despiser or a Land without.

Can we replace the rape scene with something else? Yes! You guys give authors too little credit. They're a pretty smart bunch. SRD could of written something esle that would have carried the plot just as well, of that I have no doubt.

Dark Overload asks if I would prefer murder over rape. Yes. " It would have been better if I had...crushed Lena my own daughter at birth."

As I was reading some of the posts my mind started thinking about Trell, Triock, and Atiaran. Do you guys blame Convenant for the fates of these three?

There's no doubt he's responsible for Lena, but what about the rests. Is he to be blamed because Atiaran chose to abandon the oath? Is it his burden that Trell's wife aged and he did not? Is the life Triock had Convenant's responsibility? My question is one of responsibility and not fault. There's a difference. It's like when a gorgeous girl walks into a room full of guys and they all start fighting over her. It's her fault, but she's not responsible.

Borillar26 wrote:Paradox says that because of the scene people either hate the book or love the book. So wouldn't that mean that if you eliminated the scene, more people would love the series and less would hate it.

It just wouldn't be the same story. Murder is horrible, yes, but it isn't an intimate violation like rape is. And, in fiction at least, murder is easier to forgive.

Borillar26 wrote:Can we replace the rape scene with something else? Yes! You guys give authors too little credit. They're a pretty smart bunch. SRD could of written something esle that would have carried the plot just as well, of that I have no doubt.

SRD once wrote that he doesn't have ideas; rather, ideas have him. I think he wouldn't have written something else because that isn't the story.

What else could Covenant had done, that would turn Lena's family against him, make him feel guilty as hell, and produce a child?

It has been disscussed in the Movie thread, that he could have just seduced Lena, and that the major crime would have been taking her virginity, not her innocence, but it wouldn't have the same power.

Covenant was an Ass throughout the entire first chonicles; other than the rape, treated everyone else like a bag of crap, and let his daughter kill herself...hell even in the end he couldn't win without letting his only friend sacrifice himself.

Forgivable?
Maybe, by the end of TPTP-I personally had no sympathy for him.

Perhaps that's why I liked the series so much...a story where you never actually like the protagonist, although you're still hopeing he'll win.

To answer Borillar, yes Covenant is definetly to be blamed in part for the fate of Lena's parents and Triock. Covenant Jr. and Drew are right, however; 1) the rape is more effective than a murder and is there for a reason -it just wouldn't have been the same story 2) all the things it affected(repercussions, including the existence of Elena) how do you affect that? To compare how the story would be without the rape to a Land finally without the Depiser- it's not a comparable example- it's NECESSARY in order for everything to work out the way it did. Borillar is being naive and overly optimisic about about the plot being carried just as well by something else-it's ESSENTIAL-there would be no plot without it. He said authors are a pretty smart bunch, they don't get enough credit- they can do it! This is way too optimistic(they aren't God after all) the plot is what it is- something that essential MAKES up the character of the plot(I'm not saying JUST that one thing) and if you change something ESSENTIAL about the nature of ANYTHING, you don't have that thing anymore- you have something else. You wouldn't just be changing the border/trim/edge of the tapestry/rug- you would be changing the entire FABRIC of the tapestry( and the ENTIRE fabric of the story) into SOMETHING ELSE- in other words a different story- not the same story, period. SRD is a GENIUS, if could have done it another way he WOULD have.
As for Drews comments about Covenant, I had COMPLETELY sympathy for him. He was SO wretched through absolutely no fault of his own I couldn't help it. The only thing I didn't like- I couldn't STAND, it drove me CRAZY-was his refusal to fight or take a stand(partially because/to maintain(or hold onto) his unbelief and partially because of some ridiculous morality- remember in LFB when he finally DID do something,'' ' I killed FIVE cavewights, FIVE!', he agonized'' . So what?, I say, they chose to be evil and follow Foul(for some inducement I assume) But other than that he was totally sympathetic to me. TDO

IF Covenant had of jumped right in and decided to fight and fight and fight, h would have fallen right in to the Despisers plan.
I doubt if Foul cares about losing a few Covewight-I doubt if he'd care if he lost ALL the cavewights; what he wanted was Covenants Ring, and Covenants power. If he decided to unleash all of his power; Foul would have won.

Perhaps only male persons can "understand" the rape

well i think this event at the begin of the story shows the reader that TC is no hero or someone who is alwys good..
i didnt know what to think about it when i rad ist but know having finished "The runes" nearly i am of the view that things like the rape are salt and pepper in the whole story!

would be interesting to know what SRD has to say about the rape!