The Matrix Reloaded

[Fist and Faith]

I agree. It couldn't be that those screens were past Ones, because there weren't nearly that many of them. And the one time, all the screens were yelling their own things, and we heard one begin to stand out - and that's the one that ended up being the Neo standing with the Architect.

And although I agree that the plot wasn't necessarily that complicated, I think the big words and entire manner of the Architect were appropriate for the AI that has been doing what he's been doing for so long. I don't think such a being would use 10 words where 1 will do. I'd use the 10 just because I'm not familiar enough with the 1 to know that I'm using it correctly.

[[Syl]]

Someone stated upthread, I believe, that the screens were Neo's possible choices (basically the architect's mission was to narrow down Neo's choices between A and B, and those screens were a part of the process... though I think showing that process may have been a little ostentatious). I go with this theory.

Remember the part where they all shout "Bullsh**!" and the architect says something along the lines of denial is the most obvious of choices.

[caamora]

I agree, Syl. I think that the tv Neo's were all possible responses that the Architect (computer) had come up with Neo using. Does that make sense? Or did I use 10 words when I could have used one?

[Earthfriend]

Hey, i'm just as guilty - if not more so - as the next person when it comes to verbosity. In fact, if i ever change my title it may be to, 'Lord Verbose'!

I spose my problem came from the contrived nature of the scene. A movie relies on subjectifying it's audience, on making them suspend their disbelief. And during that scene, i could see the writers and directors involvement too clearly, yanking me out of the movie - which is why i didn't like the scene!

I was also disappointed that Neo took everything the Architect said at face value. Neo had to choose between A and B, and i would have liked to see him choose option C. I don't know what that option would have been, however...maybe he could have cloned himself, (having intuited how to do it from his earlier encounter with Smith), and one Neo could have saved Trinity while the other trashed the machine's mainframe. Ah, but then we wouldn't have a third movie, now would we? Far be it from me to eat into hollywood's profits...

Have i earned my new title yet?

[Fist and Faith]

caamora, that's an interesting thought! Considering I've seen that kind of thing done on Star Trek, I don't know why I didn't think of it!

I should have at least thought that the Architect was somehow plugged into Neo's head, and could read all of the reactions that were going through his mind.

Instead, I was giving the Architect a bit of a mystical quality - a quality that there's no reason to believe he possessed, nor explanation for. After all, Neo's the one who can "see without time."

[caamora]

I try to keep remembering that the Architect is only a computer program. That seems to make things a little clearer for me to understand.

And you're right, F&F, Neo IS the one with gifts.

[Skyweir]

I saw it again on the weekend .. and it was even better than the first time .. it was cool too .. cos it was a marathon .. and they showed Matrix followed by Matrix re-loaded ..

F&F and Brinn .. you see .. you'll always find me agreeable where there's a point worthy of agreement :p LOLS

[Brinn]

Touche!

[Skyweir]

*removes 'certain kind of hat' and gestures grandeously in a sweeping-bowing motion*

[danlo]

Finally got the gumption 2 go see it! Leaving in 20 mins!

[Fist and Faith]

Often enough, people don't like what I rav... uh... go on and on about. But I still can't wait for you to get back!!! *rubbing hands together*

[danlo]

Well, hmmmm...I really don't kno what 2 say at 1st. My intial reaction is 2 go rent the 1st 1 and watch it again b4 I say anything...I have a feeling that alot of little clues might b in there. Although I watched the 1st 1 at the theater and then later on video, and thought my "movie mind" was somewhat unflappable I now kno it's not...

Some random thoughts and questions b4 I do that tho...

1. How do we kno that all of M's (can't remember or spell the enslaver of the keymaster's name) henchmen r dead? Yes there was a terrible explosion but the 2 "medusa" haired twins didn't appear 2 have neccessarily died. They r seen soaring up in2 the air in their "trancendant" states.

2. Why didn't Neo choose option 3 and attempt 2 kill the Architect?

3. If we assume that all the "Ones" who came b4 Neo r male--perhaps the "mother" incarnates in the 2nd option either 4 some specific reason (like testing the anamoly or attempting 2 verify the love/hope quotient in the human condition) and therefore the "mother" is Trinity?

4. Somebody said (possibly Murrin):
"We will meet a new character who will play a pivotal role in the upcoming sequels and understand how he entered the world of The Matrix" 2 which Fist, I believe, suggested may b Seraph. How do we kno that there's not referring 2 Bane (based on the movie) or the "Kid" based on the accounts from the animations?

5. I'm probably wrong, but there has 2 b some significance in the package Neo recieves with Smith's earplug/shunt and then Smith saying "you have freed me..." I tend 2 agree that Neo has in some way then allowed the Smith virus, or spam 2 run wild....

6. If, say, part of that freedom helps 2 enable agent/Smith 2 possess Bane and enter the Zion world. Doesn't that trigger some type of complimentary breach that might account for Neo having the power 2 stop the machines at the end of the movie?

7. What exactly r all the levels again btween Zion and the surface? I know they had all those weird breeding tanks in the first one. And if there r machines on that sublevel that allow Zion's population 2 live. Who built those machines? More machines? And if that's true then it supports the argument that the 'real world' must exist apart from or on a secondary level as opposed 2 the Matrix...

8. I kno that there is probably more 2 Seraph than meets the eye, but (just 4 the sake of arguement)...how do me kno that Seraph wasn't simply the best program available 2 test Neo's skill's, if indeed he is a program?

(p.s. this was the 1st time I've ever read this thread. U silly critters amaze me more and more everyday!!!! This absolutely BRILLIANT side of y'all (yeah, even Fist! ) has been hiding from me 2 long! 2 )

[Fist and Faith]

1. I don't see any reason that the twins can't still be alive. I imagine the explosion sent them too far to be able to get back to the battle before Neo flew in. After all, he twins aren't agents, and I don't imagine they can just take over a human "body" to get around quickly.

2. If Neo took the time to kill the architect, Trinity would have died. He caught her JUST before she hit the car, and she already had a bullet in her. I don't know if he would have been able to fix her from the damage of the impact.

3. You lost me with this one.

4. I really like Seraph, and hoped it was him. But since I've now seen Animatrix, I think the Kid is the character in question.

5. I don't think you're probably wrong.

6. Excellent thought! Maybe that's a consequence that Smith never imagined, just like the breaking of the Law of Death.

7. I don't know about "levels." There are lots of tunnels in the earth that the machines and Zion ships travel in, and I'm sure some of the tunnels have chambers for specific reasons. But, as I understand it, Zion was hidden until, in some unknown way (maybe it's in the game that Murrin mentioned?), the machines found it. Animatrix spoiler:

Spoiler

They started digging just as the Zion ship Orion popped up to the surface - which they had never done before - saw them digging, and took off to warn Zion. They were destroyed by the machines, but not before they got the message out. All of that is in Animatrix. But in the beginning of Reloaded, they briefly debate whether the information from the Orion is accurate.

As for the non-AI machines in Zion (generators, water recyclers, etc), I assume they were built by humans. I imagine they dug out Zion and built the machines during the war, just in case they needed to hide.

8. Yeah, that's probably about it. Somehow, the Oracle got the best there was to be her bodyguard. As for whether he is a program, when Neo says something like, "I'd say you're a program from the machine world. So is he", the Oracle replies with something like, "So far so good."

p.s. I'm not sure if I've been insulted or complimented! But I agree, this thread has been really great!


But weren't the fights freakin' awesome??? Man o man! Actually, I think Neo looked a little too cgi in the Smith fight, but since the action was beyond belief, I didn't mind much. And the fights with Seraph, and the Merovingian's (sp?) folks were incredible!! And who would have imagined a car-chase that I like?!?! I hate chases, and generally avoid movies with them. But this one was kinda special.

[Infelice]

With reference to The Kid, is there some significance to the spoon that he gave Neo just before they left Zion? I couldn't make any connection.

[Fist and Faith]

Just a bit of fun. When Neo first went to the Oracle in the first movie, he was in the "waiting room" with other One-wannabe's. One was a kid who sounded very Eastern-philosophy oriented, and bent spoons with his mind. That's the "orphan" who gave the spoon to the Kid to give to Neo.

[danlo]

Exactly--like the Law of Death--u groked me there Fist!

My question 3. was kinda 2 esoteric I guess. I think what I was trying 2 say is that if the "mother" of the Matrix isn't the Oracle and Neo isn't human perhaps she gets her jollies by incarnating as Trinity. By 2nd option what I mean is perhaps she has incarnated in that role 5 times already as the possible love interest (as other women, not necessarily Trinity) of the One and always represents door #2...Now I've confused myself as well

(btw...that's the hughest compliment I could have paid u Fist! The more I insult u means the more I like u! )

[Fist and Faith]

I gotcha. However, until they say otherwise, I think the mother of the Matrix IS the Oracle. Like I said, I think the Architect's "Please" was his comment on the mysticism that surrounds a title like "Oracle."

(and thanks, you lousy s.o.b.!! )

[I'm Murrin]

Zion has been rebuilt 6 times since the current incarnation of the Matrix began, each time starting from scratch. I would assume the machines they use were salvaged from Matrix machines and old ruins on the surface - their ships use 01 technology (see Second Renaissance: Pt 2 and you see an advert for 01-built flying cars) - and used to build what they needed.

As for the second option - I would believe that in the past, the option was not so specific. Neo was told that he risked the lives of the whole human race, but all he cared about was Trinity - the other Ones had a strong attachment to the human race, and no love interest, that's why they chose to enter the Source and reboot the Matrix. Neo is the only one to ever choose the other option, and that is because his attachment to the human race is not as strong as his love - and since no One has ever chosen the second option, they cannot be sure what the Architect said was true, just as the machines cannot be sure that there isn't something he can do now that they haven't considered - his choice means he can win.

[Fist and Faith]

That's a very good summation of the situation. Assuming, of course, that the "real" world isn't actually part of the Matrix, which we've discussed. Explanations can work both ways. I'm getting a little antsy for Revolutions, so we can find out. So many movies these days have the incredible, unexpected twist at the end. If Matrix follows suit... Well, I can't imagine what will happen. Ultimately though, I assume Neo and/or the Kid will lead humanity to true freedom. Then they'll work with the machinces, as the Oracle says is necessary.

[Earthfriend]

Hang on F&F; are you saying that hollywood will have a feel-good ending to the Matrix series, with the evil machines overthrown by the good and virtous Neo and Co.? Surely not...

Also, i think we can get into hot water here if we start examining Zion too deeply. There's just too many inconsistancies about that whole setup - i think closer examination would cause it to collapse under the weight of its own spurious logic. That is, of course, assuming that Zion is a 'real' pace, and not just another construction of the matrix...my favorite ending to the series would be Neo's sickening realisation that he never left the matrix..BWAHAHAHA!