President Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital

[Skyweir]

Harsh but fair comment I suppose.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I am always harsh but fair.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Jewish leaders outraged by Trump saying Jews disloyal if they vote for Democrats [Video]

Washington(CNN) -- President Donald Trump on Tuesday criticized Jewish Americans who vote for Democrats, saying "it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty."

Trump was speaking to the press in the Oval Office about two Democratic congresswomen barred from entering Israel over their involvement in the movement to end international support for the country because of its policies toward Palestinians.

"Five years ago, the concept of even talking about this -- even three years ago -- of cutting off aid to Israel because of two people that hate Israel and hate Jewish people -- I can't believe we're even having this conversation," Trump added. "Where has the Democratic Party gone? Where have they gone where they're defending these two people over the State of Israel?"

He added, "I think any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat -- it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty."

The remark led critics to argue the President was dabbling in the anti-Semitic trope of "dual loyalty," which questions the loyalty of Jewish citizens.

"It's unclear who @POTUS is claiming Jews would be 'disloyal' to, but charges of disloyalty have long been used to attack Jews. As we've said before, it's possible to engage in the democratic process without these claims. It's long overdue to stop using Jews as a political football," Anti-Defamation League CEO Jonathan Greenblatt tweeted later Tuesday.

Halie Soifer, executive director of the Jewish Democratic Council of America, called the comments "yet another example of Donald Trump continuing to weaponize and politicize anti-Semitism."

"If this is about Israel, then Trump is repeating a dual loyalty claim, which is a form of anti-Semitism. If this is about Jews being 'loyal' to him, then Trump needs a reality check. We live in a democracy, and Jewish support for the Republican Party has been halved in the past four years," Soifer added.

[...]

[Skyweir]

So they should be .. its a stupid and obviously manipulative thing for him to claim.

Trump is a master manipulator to be sure .. thats become obvious from his knee jerk reactionary twitter feed. Id hate to be his wife or in his family.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Not all Jews blindly support Israel and its current government simply because they are Jews; this is something which Trump--and many other people--fail to understand.

[Skyweir]

Very true .. supporting Jews is very different to supporting Netenyahu and his Zionist aims.

[Avatar]

Agreed.

--A

[TheFallen]

Very true .. supporting Jews is very different to supporting Netenyahu and his Zionist aims.

Erm...

Sure one can be anti-Netanhayu and anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic in the least... and that's pretty much the position that I would classify myself as holding.

But what on God's green earth is "supporting Jews" meant to mean?

[Skyweir]

Good and valid criticism TF.

Im distinguishing anti Semiticism from being anti Israel ie anti Netenyahu... but yes expressed it poorly.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Debbie Wasserman Schultz: As Democrats continue to support Israel, Trump undermines Jews [Opinion]

Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz speaking in Tampa, Florida, in July 2016. (Photo: Jason Behnken/epa)


With his anti-Semitic tropes and dual-loyalty claim, Donald Trump is attempting to divide bipartisan support for Israel on political, religious lines.


The Jewish people have been the target of white nationalism for more than a century. No world leader, especially the president of the United States of America, should contribute to this disgusting rhetoric. For President Donald Trump to state that American Jews have dual loyalties is not only a disgraceful use of his platform as the leader of the free world, but it's also an anti-Semitic attack that should be condemned by Jews everywhere.

My Jewish identity empowers me to be a Democrat and support the state of Israel. Those do not work at cross purposes. In fact, they go hand in hand.

Democratic policies reflect Jewish values. My parents instilled in me the importance of "tikkun olam" (repairing the world) and "tzedakah" (charity). It is Democrats who have tried to welcome the stranger by unanimously passing legislation to grant Venezuelans fleeing the despotic Maduro regime temporary protected status. It is Democrats who have been working to heal the sick and keep people healthy by making sure all Americans have access to quality affordable health insurance, regardless of preexisting conditions. And Democrats are determined to act now to save our planet from the catastrophic effects of global warming for future generations.

[...]

President Trump simultaneously suggests that Democratic support for Israel has eroded while utilizing the same dangerous, anti-Semitic tropes that leaders -- regardless of party -- have disavowed for generations.

[...]

Each day brings a new set of complex challenges to the Middle East. President Trump's attempts to use Israel as a diversion tactic to drive a political wedge between Democrats and Republicans, Jews and non-Jews, is divisive, dangerous and reprehensible.

[...]

I say this to the president: American Jews are loyal, loyal to our Democratic values and loyal to our Jewish value of tikkun olam, improving the conditions for all Americans, not just a privileged few. We do not need nor want you speaking on our behalf.

Your arrogant, ignorant promotion of the idea that you are, in any way, similar to our great Jewish leaders dating back thousands of years is insulting. I didn't know King David or King Solomon, but I have known Israeli leaders like Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak. To paraphrase Sen. Lloyd Bentsen, Donald Trump, you are not now nor will ever be thought of as a great leader to the majority of American Jews, because you represent the opposite of our community's values.

I am honored to serve as a member of Congress, where I have the opportunity to bring my unwavering support for Israel and Jewish values to work every day.

Your pomposity does not help the Jewish people. In fact, it emboldens those trying to harm Israel, and compromises the bipartisan U.S.-Israel relationship.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Ms. Wasserman Schultz is lying--a lot of Democrats, especially the younger one, fully support BDS (boycott, divest, strike). In fact, Omar and Tlaib were going to go to Israel to support BDS and Palestinian efforts against Israel before they got told "no".

Jewish people in the United States need to wake up and smell the coffee--most Democrats are more sympathetic to Muslims than to Jews.

[Avatar]

Sure one can be anti-Netanhayu and anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic in the least... and that's pretty much the position that I would classify myself as holding.

Yeah, me too. A lot of people don't seem to understand the distinction though.

--A

[Skyweir]

There is Jewish support for Palestinian statehood as well. American Jews, who formed the groups ie the British, Jews for Justice for Palestine, the European European Hews for a Just Peace, as well as the group Jewish Voice for Peace .. all who support Palestinian freedom and statehood.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

There is Jewish support for Palestinian statehood as well. American Jews, who formed the groups ie the British, Jews for Justice for Palestine, the European European Hews for a Just Peace, as well as the group Jewish Voice for Peace .. all who support Palestinian freedom and statehood.

I don't doubt that for one second. However, if I were Jewish I would be very hesitant to support a Palestinian homeland because most Palestinians do not support a Jewish homeland.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Sure one can be anti-Netanhayu and anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic in the least... and that's pretty much the position that I would classify myself as holding.

Yeah, me too. A lot of people don't seem to understand the distinction though.

--A

No matter how the pizza is sliced, I can't see how -- if Zionism is understood to mean flatly "the right of Jews to self-determination" -- Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.

By that understanding, rather than either Pro-Zionism or Anti-Zionism, it seems to me that the only reasonable position is Philo-Zionism.

My

[Skyweir]

Why Philo Zionism ... that makes no sense to me ... thats the equivalent of pro Zionism isnt it?

The issue isnt being anti Zionism .. not as to its pure objective perspective.

The problem I have is Netenyahus government and his Zionist agenda ... ie at any means at any cost. There is an extremist Zionist view that Netenyahu holds and IT involves wiping out Palestine and Palestinians. His approach is akin to a scorched earth approach. Furthermore IT is expansionist.

So no support for the kinds of actions Israel has taken and IS taking against Palestine ie Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank etc.

So theres a simple Zionist perspective and a highly political extreme Zionist perspective.

Netenyahu is pursuing the latter. Hes famous for his beliefs in a greater Zion a greater Israel.

So yes one CAN be anti Israel per the government and NOT anti Semitic.

Anti Semitism is having a prejudice against Jews... that is not my view at all. What we are saying is that there IS a difference between being anti Semitic and being anti Netenyahu or anti Israel.

I thought Wos, of all posters would understand that simple distinction.

Its like me criticising Obama for a particular political policy decision. Thats NOT racist. My criticism is not based on the colour of his skin ... rather questions the efficacy of his policy decision. Period.

This distinction is pretty critical imv ... because how often do we see claims being made that entirely misconstrue the point? It happens imv all the time.

[Avatar]

I can't see how -- if Zionism is understood to mean flatly "the right of Jews to self-determination" -- Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.

Ah, you see, to me "Zionism" doesn't mean "the right of Jews to self-determination."

And if it did, don't the Palestinians have the same right?

--A

[Skyweir]

Exactly

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

I can't see how -- if Zionism is understood to mean flatly "the right of Jews to self-determination" -- Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.

Ah, you see, to me "Zionism" doesn't mean "the right of Jews to self-determination."

And if it did, don't the Palestinians have the same right?

Since I would say that the rights of Jews don't depend upon whether or not they recognize the rights of Palestinians, the more relevant and interesting part of your response is, IMO, the first part.

What, IIMA, do you see as being the meaning of Zionism?

[Avatar]

I see it as insular / oppressive Jewish Nationalism / Expansionism.

Of course they have a right to self-determination. That doesn't give them the right to deny that same thing to others.

--A