Illegal Aliens

[sindatur]

Av, perhaps it's not so on the African Continent, or in Europe, but, in America, refusing to learn to speak English (As a second language, I have no issues with them mainting their primary language and heritage) also seems to go hand in hand with refusing to assimilate, to feel a part of the Country. For example, I find in California, those Mexicans that learn to speak English, seem more patriotic, and understanding this is their country, whereas those who refuse to speak English, stick their neighborhood that speaks their same language, and almost don't even acknowledge they are in America, they follow everything going on back in Mexico (not surprising they would have family and their heritage there), but, if a war was to break out, they would rise up with Mexico to take California from the US.

So, it's not so much we (or at least not those with similar views to me, not sure about isolationists and those further right) want them to lose their heritage, but, more, that we want them to consider this is their country. Plus of course the annoyance of ordering a burger and having to send it back twice because they couldn't understand your order. And finally, how can Adult Qamericans with families and busy lives, not only learn Spanish, but, Vietnamese, Croatian, Urdu, and a few others, plus, as pointed out earlier, Ebonics? Isn't it far more practical for immigrants to learn the language already spoken?

[Prebe]

HA! And I just shook my head, and said to myself, "Okay, it's not worth it..."

Kudos, Prebe!

'Couldn't just let it slide could I?

[Tjol]

Education in the language of your choice is not only a right, it's a necessity for exactly the same reason that Tjol seems to suggest, albeit negatively. If the coursework and education is both in the laguage of choice, then there can't be an excuse for falling behind. An excuse which, lets be honest, could be a legitimate one as well. *shrug*

America permits many religions. Why should it permit only one language?

--A

Because language is a means for understanding. Deliberately segregating one's self via language is deliberately choosing not to understand, and not to be understood by others in your community. You can't have democracy and freedom without being able to clearly communicate, because without communication there is no understanding of the desires and aspirations of an individual, and so no way in which to try to accomodate those desires and aspirations.

Everyone should learn another language, whatever language they see fit to learn. I'm not against multilingualism in the least. Everyone needs to speak the common language though. If everyone speaks their own language, and no other language, then you have a bunch of strangers who will only ever regard each other as strangers. In america every ethnic and social group understands this except for one 'sect' of hispanics who speak only spanish, and sit indignantly waiting for everyone else to understand them, without ever making an effort to be understandable by the people that have to interact with them.

Religion and language are different creatures as well, religion is in the realm of ideas, language is only a means for expression. Sharing the common language does not in any way restrict a person from still knowing how and speaking their native language. Asking that people share a common language is asking them to express themselves in more ways, whereas restricting this religion or that is asking them to be believe in less ways. One is an additive process, the other is subtractive.

I will some day, should I have the spare time, learn gaelic, not simply because of heredity, but because I have an inclination for trying to preserve things that I see being forgotten in the world, that may at some point in the future prove quite useful. Should I ever learn gaelic though, I will not refuse to speak the common language, I will not demand that everyone learn gaelic and speak gaelic, simply for me, simply so that I can arrogantly refuse to speak the common language.

[iQuestor]

tjol

Language is a different thing. its one thing to promote bilingual people, and that is a great thing. But having more than one national language is a disaster. I dont think it works out well for Canada.

It isn't a matter of freedom, its logistics and expense and liabilty as well. Companies that are forced to advertise on two languages double thier costs -- they dont have a choice, because the non-english speakers compain their rights have been violated... All businesses that are open to the public would be adversely affected (I am a business owner) -- now they have to pay for all their exit and emergency response signage, not to mention labor law posters, employee memos, etc -- all doubled in cost.

I do not think I should have to dial 1 for english in my own country when I am calling an american business; If you want to be a part of America as a worker or citizen, then you need to learn english because that is what we speak here, do business in, have our road signs in, etc. ; If I move to Germany, I expect to learn German or be at a giant disadvantage.

Of course, America is so PC now that they cave in to it because god forbid we offend anyone. A gentleman in Pennsylvania (I think) was recently fined because he had an Amercian flag in his business, and a sign: Please order in English. This apparently offended some non-English patrons and the city took action against the man, who had to take the sign down.. What a bunch of PC crap.

[Avatar]

Interesting points folks. It seems like we're looking at this in different ways. Everybody here, no matter what other languages they speak, speaks at least some of one of the two most common languages.

Nobody, or very few, refuses to speak one of them. The large effort made to accommodate the speakers of the other languages is not to "give in" to them, it's to ensure understanding.

So that people are not disadvantaged because English for example is only a second or third language to them. Business, for example, is conducted in English.

Still, I must disagree somewhat with Tjol...language is part of the realm of ideas as well. Very much part. Our language has significant effects even on the way we see the world, were we but better aware of it.

Anyway, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people in an English speaking country to expect to deal in English, but these reasonable expectations seem to cover (barely) some sort of...hostility even. Perhaps I'm imagining it.

--A

[sindatur]

Sure. When you have to send a burger back several times because the person taking your order didn't understand enough English to catch what you ordered is irritating.

And sure, if someone wants to come to this country to take advantage of it's economic opportunities, yet they feel more allegiance to their home country, it creates a bit of hostility, why shouldn't it? That's like taking in a Foster child who would stab you in the back at their first opportunity.

[Avatar]

So if you went to another country to work because you could make more money there, you'd assume allegiance and patriotism to that country?

--A

[Tjol]

So if you went to another country to work because you could make more money there, you'd assume allegiance and patriotism to that country?

--A

Yes. It's the country that makes that better paying job possible... and the former country that made the move inevitable. Would you love a country that condemned you to inescapable poverty? Would you hate a country that gave you a way out of poverty?

[Avatar]

...well, I'll take your word for it, but I'm a bitsurprised actually.

You can still love a country even if you live in inescapable (or nearly so) poverty in it. And you can still hate (or at least dislike), a country that gives you a way out of it. Especially if it is a grudging way out, ad especially if the inbitants don't seem to much want you there. *shrug*

--A

[sindatur]

So if you went to another country to work because you could make more money there, you'd assume allegiance and patriotism to that country?

--A

First, I'm going to assume you are legally living in this country that is giving you a way out of poverty, if not, your question is invalid, as the person doing the work should be deported.

So, yes. If you have come to this country, and are living here legally, taking advantage of the freedoms offered, I expect you to show allegiance to it, and I would expect the same of myself.

[Tjol]

...well, I'll take your word for it, but I'm a bitsurprised actually.

You can still love a country even if you live in inescapable (or nearly so) poverty in it. And you can still hate (or at least dislike), a country that gives you a way out of it. Especially if it is a grudging way out, ad especially if the inbitants don't seem to much want you there. *shrug*

--A

Well, you'll have to come to California some time to see the difference between how Americans from any ethnic heritage, including hispanic/indian are accepted, and how foreign nationals who have contempt for the country they're exploiting are accepted.

As I said before, it's not that people aren't wanted, it's that they're bad neighbors that have simply rubbed the neighborhood entirely the wrong way with their cultural contempt for all the other cultures.

There's a huge difference between fifth generation Americans who still enjoy the food, music, and otherwise of their former motherland, and the illegal alien who operates on a ' for the race everything, for the rest nothing' mentality.

[Avatar]

Like Sindatur, I'm not talking about illegal aliens. That said however, I'm sure that the idea that illegal aliens operate on that mentality is, at best, a generalisation. To an extent anyway, because obviously they are going to find more support and acceptance within their ethnic community than outside it.

All that said, perhaps the problem is that even legal immigrants are not American. Perhaps it is difficult to have a multi-cultural society where all your multi-culturalism comes, per force, from foreigners.

Here of course, whether we're English, Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa, or any other cultural affiliation, we're still South Africans.

--A

[iQuestor]

So if you went to another country to work because you could make more money there, you'd assume allegiance and patriotism to that country?

--A

First, I'm going to assume you are legally living in this country that is giving you a way out of poverty, if not, your question is invalid, as the person doing the work should be deported.

So, yes. If you have come to this country, and are living here legally, taking advantage of the freedoms offered, I expect you to show allegiance to it, and I would expect the same of myself.

Here here Sindatur!!!!!!!!!!

[Cail]

Just sort of seems like common sense.

[Avatar]

*shrug* It's all too easy for me to understand how that wouldn't be true. (Obviously generalising a lot, but just following a train of thought. It no more applies to everybody than any such generalisation does, but that doesn't make the reasoning, or its potential, any less valid.)

You're poor, so you travel to another country where you can make a better living. So for a start, it's important material considerations that drive you there.

Secondly, you don't really fit in. You're there legally, but you're not actually a part of the country. Maybe the native inhabitants look at you funny. Or subject you to offensive stereotyping. Maybe the cops do the same, because afterall, you're a foreigner. You may look different, you almost certainly sound different.

And because of that you feel out of place. And if you feel out of place, feel perhaps that you are looked down on, that you're treated disrespectfully or whatever, you're not very likely to feel patriotic toward the country whose natives treat you that way.

Of course, if you become successfull, then you can buy your acceptance into the country, because money is the great equaliser. So you'll find rich and successfull foreigners who live there that will be patriotic.

But if you're stuck as a construction worker or whatever, I doubt your love for the country is going to overflow at its kindness toward you.

Hell, I lived and worked in the UK for nearly 3 years in total, (spread out a bit though), and I sure never felt patriotic to it, or obligated to it in any way. I was there to sell my services. They bought my services. It was a business transaction, that's all.

--A

[sindatur]

Apparently you've never been here to California. It is quickly becoming the Whites who look different, not, the Mexicans or people from Eastern countries. Your example of Construction is a Good one. The construction industry is so filled with illegal immigrants, that wages are eroding, because it's too easy to hire an illegal. Therefore, especially in Construction and electronics industries, they certainly don't look different.

And again, if you move to a new country, a new neighborhood, a new street, etc, it is your responsibility to assimilate, in order to fit in, IMHO.

It honestly isn't like what I've heard about France, that just appearing America will get you stared non-stop when you are eating.

[Avatar]

I think you miss my point Sin. What I'm saying is that, given conditions / circumstances like the ones that immigrants, legal or otherwise, might be more likely to live in, it is no surprise that they don't feel "patriotic."

And again, if you move to a new country, a new neighborhood, a new street, etc, it is your responsibility to assimilate, in order to fit in, IMHO.

Your responsibility to fit in? Haha, I gotta disagree with that. You think somebody should change themselves to "fit in"? And how do you define that anyway? Would you be willing to do it if you moved into an area of conservative, evangelical heterosexuals? Would you consider it your duty to fit in?

--A

[Tjol]

Illegal aliens are different from legal citizens in only one fashion, that being the willingness to become an American Citizen. That being the case, my generalisation is pretty accurate. You have (a) american citizens who went through the process of becoming a citizen and (b) foreign nationals who spend the same money and effort to stay a foreign national, while at the same time exploiting the charity of the US.

Legal immigrants are inherantly patriotic. They tend to in many cases be more patriotic than people born citizens of the US. You have to live in the muck in order to realise just how fortunate you are to live in the US. It's unfortunate that too many take it for granted, and too many are ignorant of what it took to bring this country into being, and that too many are complacent about the slow erosion of the principles that are unique to this country. But legal immigrants, they see it, there isn't one that I've known that hasn't felt patriotic, not one that's been a bad neighbor.

[Avatar]

I certainly agree that people who go to the trouble of becoming citizens will be more likely to be "patriotic." But you can still have legal immigrants who are not citizens, can't you?

As for charity, don't the immigrants work? Isn't that why they're there?

--A

[sindatur]

I think you miss my point Sin. What I'm saying is that, given conditions / circumstances like the ones that immigrants, legal or otherwise, might be more likely to live in, it is no surprise that they don't feel "patriotic."

And again, if you move to a new country, a new neighborhood, a new street, etc, it is your responsibility to assimilate, in order to fit in, IMHO.

Your responsibility to fit in? Haha, I gotta disagree with that. You think somebody should change themselves to "fit in"? And how do you define that anyway? Would you be willing to do it if you moved into an area of conservative, evangelical heterosexuals? Would you consider it your duty to fit in?

--A

Yea, I would. I would consider it my responsibility to keep my yard and the outside of my house looking just as nice as everyone else does, and not to have my car jacked up in the driveway without tires on it, leaking oil. I would understand it's my responsibility to keep my dogs in my yard and everything else that makes a good neighbor. I would understand it's my responsibility to keep the blinds drawn when doing things that would offend the neighbors, and not to be playing Death Metal at top volume in the middle of the night, and not to pee in other people's yards. I don't have to stop being Gay to fit in, and I don't expect Mexicans to stop being Mexican, but, you do have to assimilate.