Oh I totally agree. I would be against Jews praying for the conversion of Christians as well. I'm talking universally about this stuff, not just Christians.Luci wrote: i'm sort of in the Cail camp on this one LM, sorry but the truth is that all religions "think they're right and every other one is wrong" so...to point the finger at one and cry "arrogance" is sort of a moot point.)
Catholicism reverts (again)
Moderator: Fist and Faith
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
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i understand LM, but here's the deal,
why does anyone WHO'S NOT CATHOLIC have anything to say about what catholics say in THEIR MASS.
far as i can see, it's none of anybody else's business(jew, muslim, atheist, etc) what catholics do or say in the sanctity of their own churches during their own services!!
how come nobody's bitching about THAT??? hmmm???
why does anyone WHO'S NOT CATHOLIC have anything to say about what catholics say in THEIR MASS.
far as i can see, it's none of anybody else's business(jew, muslim, atheist, etc) what catholics do or say in the sanctity of their own churches during their own services!!
how come nobody's bitching about THAT??? hmmm???
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
I'm totally with Mhoram and Esmer on this one.Cail wrote:If you say so LM. I believe my beliefs are the way to my salvation, and I pray for others to have that salvation as well. 17,000+ posts, and you'll not find a single one in which I belittle anyone else's religious beliefs.
It's ironic that the Catholic is preaching tolerance and acceptance and the atheist (or agnostic, or whatever your beliefs are) is preaching hatred and exclusion. Must everything be a conflict? My faith is better for me, it would be selfish of me to not want to share it.
First, Cail, notice how you capitalize only one group in the above quote.
This is (probably) an unconscious example of the arrogance and superior attitude Mhoram has been speaking of.
Second, saying you'll pray for me, or whatever, is including me in a religion I may have expressly rejected, chosen not to pe a part of, dislike, despise, whatever has been the outcome on my lifetime of thoughts on the matter.
Some in this thread have said it's being overly sensitive. I disagree.
Your reasoning of saying 'what's the harm?' leads me to this question:
Let's say I wanted a secular funeral, then you decided to disregard my wishes and did what you could to make it a Christian affair.
What does it matter?
Your enlightened hope for my salvation supercedes my lifetime.
Arrogant? You betcha.
And Lucimay, your saying that the Jews have no right to be critical of what the Catholics say about them behind closed doors ignores 1000+ years of anti-Semitism, what they did say about them,in secret and out in the open, and all the agony bestowed upon many of their race by this same group.
Praying that they join this group is too much not to respond to. (I'm not a Jew,and I hope I'm not appearing to speak for the Jews,I'm giving my opinion only.)
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DukkhaWaynhim
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 9195
- Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:35 pm
- Location: Deep in thought
Except that the fundies of any religion will try and sell you on the idea that peace, love, and happiness isn't good enough unless it comes with a full dose of their Name-brand religion - and no substitutes allowed.
I take offense at the idea of the Mormon church baptizing dead people into the Mormon faith (people that were not Mormons in life, and had no inclination towards becoming so...) I find that worlds different than muttering a prayer under my breath right before I go to bed for the enlightenment of those that don't know the joy of Christ. But then again, I'm Catholic, so I'm biased toward giving other Catholics the benefit of the doubt, and not doing so for Mormons.
The Jews felt the need to publicly disapprove of the reassertion of the Latin mass, because the Catholics felt the need to make that reassertion public. It's all posturing.
dw
I take offense at the idea of the Mormon church baptizing dead people into the Mormon faith (people that were not Mormons in life, and had no inclination towards becoming so...) I find that worlds different than muttering a prayer under my breath right before I go to bed for the enlightenment of those that don't know the joy of Christ. But then again, I'm Catholic, so I'm biased toward giving other Catholics the benefit of the doubt, and not doing so for Mormons.
The Jews felt the need to publicly disapprove of the reassertion of the Latin mass, because the Catholics felt the need to make that reassertion public. It's all posturing.
dw
"God is real, unless declared integer." - Unknown
Uhhh Dromond, Catholic is a proper noun, atheist is not. That's why it wasn't capitalized while Hindu, Jew, Catholic, and Muslim all were.
Then I'd be an asshole, but that's not at all what's been suggested, so that's one mother of a straw man.Dromond wrote:Your reasoning of saying 'what's the harm?' leads me to this question:
Let's say I wanted a secular funeral, then you decided to disregard my wishes and did what you could to make it a Christian affair.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
I see, so me praying for someone without their knowledge is the same as taking their body, subjecting it to a physical ritual, then permanently interring it in a manner contrary to their beliefs and wishes?
Riiiiiiiggghht. That's definitely not a straw man.
Riiiiiiiggghht. That's definitely not a straw man.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
Firstly, it's perfectly clear here that we are talking about praying for someone with the person's knowledge, even if they are against it (you used me as an example, and we are currently considering Dromond). Secondly, you insist that you are concerned with the well being of the souls of everyone. Isn't the burial service a religious one for Christians? Isn't that considered part of the process of death and mourning for Christians? If so, it is analogous to prayer in some fundamental way.
Why Dromond, neither you nor LM have bothered to read mine. A funeral is absolutely not the same as private prayer, even if you are aware that I'm doing it. Please explain to me what harm is done if someone of a different faith prays for you. And you haven't addressed the fact that I have capitalized every other faith I've mentioned. Pretty weak argument if you've got to resort to attacking my spelling, and I'd refer you to your post, "Would you read my posts?"
Furthermore LM, you're one to talk about arrogance. I've consistently stated that I don't believe that other religions are lesser than mine. Yet you keep telling me that's not what I'm saying and/or not what I mean. I believe that is the textbook definition of arrogance.
Furthermore LM, you're one to talk about arrogance. I've consistently stated that I don't believe that other religions are lesser than mine. Yet you keep telling me that's not what I'm saying and/or not what I mean. I believe that is the textbook definition of arrogance.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
Cail,
I'm not being arrogant. You are being bullheaded. Answer me this question then: You are praying or would pray for the souls of adherents to non-Christian faiths, so that they would convert to Christianity in order that they may achieve salvation, right? Logical leap: They wouldn't achieve salvation (or perhaps the method of salvation that is best) if they weren't being prayed for by Christians. Another logical leap: Their adherence to their faith does not meet the standards of achieving salvation that Christianity has set. I am not saying that you feel this way personally, but this ideology smacks of a ranking of faiths. One gets you to Heaven. The other doesn't do it sufficiently, so we have to pray they convert to our more enlightened faith.
And neither I nor Dromond is saying there would be "harm" done. And he did address the capitalization issue, btw.
I'm not being arrogant. You are being bullheaded. Answer me this question then: You are praying or would pray for the souls of adherents to non-Christian faiths, so that they would convert to Christianity in order that they may achieve salvation, right? Logical leap: They wouldn't achieve salvation (or perhaps the method of salvation that is best) if they weren't being prayed for by Christians. Another logical leap: Their adherence to their faith does not meet the standards of achieving salvation that Christianity has set. I am not saying that you feel this way personally, but this ideology smacks of a ranking of faiths. One gets you to Heaven. The other doesn't do it sufficiently, so we have to pray they convert to our more enlightened faith.
And neither I nor Dromond is saying there would be "harm" done. And he did address the capitalization issue, btw.
Your logical leap is false, which voids everything after.
How is stating my beliefs bullheaded?
How is stating my beliefs bullheaded?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
What part of, "I don't care what you have faith in or if you have faith" and, "Catholicism is the best religion for me, it might not be for you", are you not getting?
I've told you why I believe you're wrong over and over, you just don't seem to care.
I've told you why I believe you're wrong over and over, you just don't seem to care.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
You don't care what faith we have? Really? Might as well stop those prayers for conversion then, right? As for the "Catholicism is right for me, might not be right for you," that is not Catholic dogma so it does not pertain to the topic of the thread, but I'll take a crack at that anyway: You might say that, but if you are praying for a non-Catholic's soul because that soul is somehow in danger because he is not a Catholic...well then, whose faith is superior in your mind?