Breaking Bad

[Akasri]

The writers and producers have mentioned Scarface in connection with this show more than once. Walt was even seen watching it a couple seasons back. That movie didn't turn out too well for anyone did it?

I really think there needs to be something more to this finale than just Walt's dreams being crushed underfoot, though. That seems even too bleak for this show. When the season started, I really believed that everyone around Walt would die and he would be left alone with his "empire" of nothingness, which is bleak but "he won". But here we are at the finale and so far only Hank has died (from Walt's family), so now I don't know what to expect.

The absolutely fantastic thing about this whole show is the fact that nobody knows what will happen. Usually a show is leading up to its finale, you get a gist of where it's heading, and then (barring some strange twist) it ends there. This show could go along any one of a bunch of paths next week and still have a satisfying ending (at least in my mind).

[I'm Murrin]

God, what must Jesse be like after months of captivity?

[Zarathustra]

Lots of good points here. Akasri is right, this could go a number of ways. It's amazing that we still have that level of uncertainty this close to the end.

I think Cail's right, it certainly can't end with Walt being reunited with his family, his money, and happily ever after. Nor is there time for any possible "Angus ending," where the criminal redeems himself by some extravagently noble act. Turning himself in would have been the best possible, redeeming ending. That's not going to happen, or last week would have been the end. Nor is he going to escape and be alone with his money, a sad/pathetic "victory"--that, too, would have meant that last week was the ending.

So there's still somewhere the story needs to go.

Unresolved issues:

Nazi gang
Jessie in captivity, never getting justice against Walt.
Skyler in trouble financially and legally.
Walt Jr hating his dad.
Walt not achieving either his ambitions or restution.

Oh, and Huell still stuck in that damn safe room.

Am I leaving anything out that's significant? Do we need to know how Saul turns out? Or Marrie? I can't imagine their stories involving any significant change, though I imagine they'll have some kind of final scenes.

The first, second, and fourth points could be resolved in a gang showdown and/or rescue attempt for Jessie. That won't help Skyler or Jr. It would make his family safe, however. He could at least do that much. And maybe he forces them to admit to his son that he's innocent regarding Hank, as WF suggests. But I'm not sure what good that will do. It's not true. He might as well have killed Hank, because Hank really did die because of Walt, in the end.

As for making his reputation or legacy known ... what else could he do? The entire country knows he was a meth kingpin. People probably assume he made a lot of money. There's not much else he could leave behind in terms of a legacy. The truth really is as bad as everyone thinks.

I think it's going to be about revenge at this point. I could live with that. But if it's more, and they can make it work, I'll be blown away.

[wayfriend]

I guess I'm the only one who feels Walter is not irredeemable.

Why?

He was seduced by crime. He wandered into it through desperation. Then he was seduced by success, greed, prestige, and control (in that order, essentailly). That's all to the bad.

But before the end, he mastered it. He put it all down, and walked away. The temptation was still there - Lydia, the Czech republic. But in the end, he remembered his family, and he let it all go. That's to the good. And it's trending positive.

Most of the bad things people can point to, most of them amount to crime against criminals. It's a kill-or-be-killed world. Killing murderers is arguably morally ambiguous. Even selling crack is arguably in this category... the only people you're hurting are crackheads. (Certainly the series never explores the consequences of selling crack on the people who buy it.) So that's all a wash in story terms, I feel.

What he did that was truly vile included endangering a boy to manipulate Jesse. He killed Mike -- but was that in his mind self-defense? And he endangered his family, which was really as much a lack of understanding rather than intentional harm. He enlisted his wife into a life of crime ... but she makes her own choices.

He's certainly a brilliant chemist, and a man who will go to extraordinary lengths to provide for his family. That's positive.

Is he responsible for Hank's death? Yes, or at least, he has a large part of that responsibility. But he didn't want Hank's death. In fact, he was willing to trade everything he had to spare him -- even though it meant going to jail --- even though it meant leaving nothing for his family's future --- he would have given it all away to keep Hank alive. That counts!

Walter was seduced by crime... but then he gave it up. He unleashed things he could not control ... but he did not choose them. Master of fate, by fate mastered.

[I'm Murrin]

He unleashed things he couldn't control, yes, but he did it because he was arrogant enough to believe he could control them. (From the start, everyone around him has wished they could work with someone else because he's way worse at it than he thinks he is.)

[Akasri]

I love the way they wrapped everything up. This was a great finale to a great show.

[Cail]

"Justice" for Walt would be a pathetic, meaningless death with all of his work amounting to naught.

Sure, part of me would love to watch him dispatch the Nazis, be reunited with his family and his money, and die knowing that he'd done exactly what he set out to do. But if that's the ending, I'm gonna be pissed....Probably as pissed as I was about Dexter....because that ending would be a huge cop-out.

So I'm pissed. Walt won, and got exactly what he wanted with no consequences. No reckoning, no judgement, no justice. He doesn't even get to die from cancer. Not only that, his Heisenberg legacy is bolstered since he's found in Jesse's lab....People really will think he was the only guy who could cook the blue meth.

Very disappointing end to a great series.

[Akasri]

I'm the opposite Cail.

I think it was a fitting end. They wrapped up all the story lines. Walt died, which we knew that was coming, but him dying saving Jesse was a nice touch after all they'd been through together.

Him finally admitting to Skyler that he did this for himself was a big step in making things work for me I think. It's like he finally stood up and took responsibility for everything he's done.

Only change I would have made to this ending would be to have Lydia be at the compound when he attacked it, so she would die with them. Then, when it looks like Walt might live, he would get captured, only to find out he'd used the Ricin on himself anticipating the capture. Then he could make a full confession of everything to set the story of himself right (which was important to him I think) and die without having to serve time.

That ending may not have worked, but it was an option I had thought might happen.

Overall I am happy with this ending. It was a great end to a great show IMO.

[wayfriend]

I liked the ending very much. I liked the way that his encounter with the Schwartzes completely foiled my expectations. I liked the lasers. I liked the way he wrapped it up with Skyler, and I liked the way his confession explained everything in five years in a new light. I liked the way Walter dealt with the neo-Nazies with one last Walter miracle. I liked his final gift to Jesse. I liked how Walter wanted to be found among the instruments of his greatness.

Kudos to Akasri for seeing Lydia's demise coming. I didn't think he had a reason to go after Lydia ... I was wrong.

I was wrong about Walter trying to earn his son's respect back by trying to correct his view of Hank's death. However, there were a few details about last night's episode that had to do with Walter "fixing" his legacy. The way he cleaned up the post-Walter crack business was the biggest one. His admissions to Skyler another. But I particularly enjoy how he seemed to claim that lab as his at the end, as if he had just won it back from people who took it from him (by using his name as well as his method).

The joy on Jesse's face was repeated on mine as he drove off.

[Cail]

For a show that continually challenged the viewer and the characters, I found this Disney ending to be completely out of step with the rest of the series.

What we're left with at the end of the show is that Walt made the right decision, and it was all worthwhile. Crime pays, no matter what the collateral damage is.

Flynn might hate him, but he'll be well taken care of.

He got his revenge on the Schwartzes (and I'll admit, that was clever).

His Heisenberg legacy is not only intact, it's reinforced.

Not only does he face no consequences for what he's done, he also has escaped dying from cancer.

There has been literally no consequences to Walt for what he's done. The closest we get to any sort of reckoning is his, "I did it for me", which we already knew.

[wayfriend]

I liked the ending very much. I liked the way that his encounter with the Schwartzes completely foiled my expectations. I liked the lasers. I liked the way he wrapped it up with Skyler, and I liked the way his confession explained everything in five years in a new light. I liked the way Walter dealt with the neo-Nazies with one last Walter miracle. I liked his final gift to Jesse. I liked how Walter wanted to be found among the instruments of his greatness.

Kudos to Akasri for seeing Lydia's demise coming. I didn't think he had a reason to go after Lydia ... I was wrong.

I was wrong about Walter trying to earn his son's respect back by trying to correct his view of Hank's death. However, there were a few details about last night's episode that had to do with Walter "fixing" his legacy. The way he cleaned up the post-Walter crack business was the biggest one. His admissions to Skyler another. But I particularly enjoy how he seemed to claim that lab as his at the end, as if he had just won it back from people who took it from him (by using his name as well as his method).

The joy on Jesse's face was repeated on mine as he drove off.

[wayfriend]

[Edit: I posted this in response to a post that is now gone. I will leave it anyway... but that's why the double-post.]

Surely, if you demanded justice in the form of an arrest and some prison time, you would be disappointed.

However, there were lots of other elements of justice in the ending. First, and foremost, Walter put an end to the business which kept on destroying lives even after he quit it. (Which is, as I see it, why Lydia had to die.) Not even the cops could have done that, but Walter did.

He did end up losing his family. He didn't die of cancer ... but he died of a gunshot wound, forfeiting the little time he had left. Not a Disney ending in my book. He died in the violence he lived in.

But, most pointedly, there was his final moment with Jesse. That was seeking justice, and the fact that Jesse turned it down didn't tarnish the offer.

The only gift Walter got was that Jesse didn't take up the offer. The only thing he got to keep was some money which might reach his son at some point. (I also particularly enjoyed how Walter wasn't interested in obtaining the rest of his money.)

So, the way I see it, the ending was about Walter forfeiting the remainder of his life to clean up the mess. He enacted justice upon himself.

[Cail]

[Edit: I posted this in response to a post that is now gone. I will leave it anyway... but that's why the double-post.]

My post is still there, the forum burped out two of your posts, mine's buried between them.

Surely, if you demanded justice in the form of an arrest and some prison time, you would be disappointed.

An arrest, public trial and humiliation, and imprisonment would surely have been more just than this. But no, that wasn't necessary, nor was it really what I wanted to see.

However, there were lots of other elements of justice in the ending. First, and foremost, Walter put an end to the business which kept on destroying lives even after he quit it. (Which is, as I see it, why Lydia had to die.) Not even the cops could have done that, but Walter did.

Absolutely, but that's justice meted out by Walt, not justice for Walt.

He did end up losing his family. He didn't die of cancer ... but he died of a gunshot wound, forfeiting the little time he had left. Not a Disney ending in my book. He died in the violence he lived in.

He was going to lose his family regardless. He was allowed to have the moment(s) with Skyler and Holly. He died on his terms, didn't have to suffer through the cancer, didn't have to suffer in a cabin in NH, didn't have to suffer through a trial. He got exactly what he wanted (family taken care of, legacy intact) on his terms.

Remember, the, "I'm doing this for you" excuse was soundly trounced. His family was not his priority, so the fact that he's losing time with them is far less important than the fact that the Heisenberg legacy is intact, and his family is getting his money, even though they don't want it.

In fact, what Walt does in the last episode is extremely selfish. His family has renounced him, yet he continues on with his plan to provide for them. You can argue that he does a decent thing with the lottery ticket (though I think he overestimates its use as a bargaining chip), but I believe that was more for his conscience than anything else.

But, most pointedly, there was his final moment with Jesse. That was seeking justice, and the fact that Jesse turned it down didn't tarnish the offer.

Yeah, I saw that completely differently. Walt was looking for an easy way out. Jesse wouldn't give it to him. Good for Jesse.

The only gift Walter got was that Jesse didn't take up the offer. The only thing he got to keep was some money which might reach his son at some point. (I also particularly enjoyed how Walter wasn't interested in obtaining the rest of his money.)

Jesse not shooting Walt was a big "FU". As far as Walt's concerned, his family is getting his money. There's no reason to believe that the Schwartzes wouldn't follow through, especially with the threat against them.

So, the way I see it, the ending was about Walter forfeiting the remainder of his life to clean up the mess. He enacted justice upon himself.

He cleaned up the mess by doing exactly what he'd set out to do, and he got away with it. Everything got tied up with a neat little bow (well, other than Huell).

Oh, and all those lives ruined by Walt's meth? Happened offscreen, so they just don't matter.

If the point of the series was to document the transformation of Walt from a meek chemistry professor into a criminal mastermind, then it succeeded. If it was designed to tell a tragic tale of megalomania, it failed.

Walt was a reprehensible character who deserved no redemption.

[I'm Murrin]

I think it was a good episode, and a satisfying enough finale, but it was also a little too neat and fanservice-y.

This was a very good episode of a TV show that has produced much better episodes in the past. I liked the slow and contemplative tone. I think the scenes with the Schwarzes were brilliant - the whole direction of that sequence used things that framed Walt as a villain, an invader, up until the money came in. From the money arriving until the lasers, it was a little too neat, too easy - he wasn't supposed to find a way to give them the money he'd "earned". Then the ending of that section went into Walt-as-Heisenberg and was pretty good on the threatening-and-menacing-his-friends front. Having it turn out to be a lie made sense, but having it be Badger and Skinny Pete felt like fanservice.

Even though he lost everything and a lot of people died, Walt gets to end things on his own terms and it all goes exactly as he wanted it to. It was too easy. I think the show could have done with a few more episodes to fill out the story of these last two, make it more complex.

But I'll just reiterate: Despite this criticism, I enjoyed it, it worked well, and it was one of the more satisfying endings to a series I've seen.

[drew]

The second half of the last season did not go the way I had thought at all.

Once Hank saw that book...I figured what Walt would do, is try to convince Hank that he had been helping him the whole time. After all...he did shut down Gus Fring...AFTER Gus shut down the Cartel. Hank going on the Witch hunt, completely surprised me.

That being said...once this season got rolling...everything seemed to fall into place.

Granted, as Cail said, the final episode was Disney-esque...slightly ...but not really. Walt didn't get the Angus Thermopile treatment of redemption. He didn't get off scot-free.

No; he didn't die of Cancer in Jail, and Yes, his legacy will live on as the one and only Heisenburg...but NOT the high school teacher...not the father. Also, it being Walt's and ONLY Walt's legacy legacy is the safest thing for Jessie. Jack's gang weren't the only criminals in the world. If someone else found out that there was a Heisenburg Jr running around out there...his life wouldn't be safe.

What Walt did lose, was his family. His Brother in Law was shot dead. His sister in Law hates him with a passion. His son hates him with the same passion, "Why are you still alive, just die already" are the last words his son spoke to him. Up until two years ago, he was one hell of a father...and he knew that his daughter would grow up, not only without a father, but knowing that her father was a horrible horrible person. I think that his family getting a small sum of his fortune, is little relief for what they are going to deal with for the rest of their lives...and he knew that.
The fact that at the very last second, he saved Jessie, was not in my opinion Disney-like. It was necessary; for there was a time that he loved Jessie like a son.

[Cail]

What changes everything is the Gray Matter subplot. It is literally the most important window into who Walt is.

Walt's boning Gretchen as they form GM with Elliott. They break up, Gretchen starts boning Elliott. Walt, because he's a petty, vindictive, proud man takes a buyout and plans on opening his own startup in order to "show them". But then he finds out that Skyler is pregnant. And then Walt Jr. is born with CP. Walt's dreams are crushed, and he has to debase himself in order to care for his family.

That, right there, is the entire series. It's why Walt didn't quit cooking once he met his first target. It was always about him, and "showing them". He clearly didn't care for his family's well-being, they were just a convenient excuse.

On a show full of irredeemable pieces of $hit, Walt was the worst of them.

[Zarathustra]

I was disappointed, but I can't really fault the episode. I think I just wanted things to go out on a bigger bang. However, everything happened logically and in a way that was true to the characters. If you treat the last 4 or 5 episodes as the entire "finale," with this episode being merely the closing scenes, it was a very satisfying ending to a great series.

No, I don't agree that it was Disney. The man lost his life, his family. Sure, he gets to give his kids some money, so he did achieve what he wanted in the end. But I don't get these comments about his legacy remaining intact; he didn't achieve that in this episode. The legacy he cared about--being Heisenberg--wouldn't have been affected one way or the other, no matter how this episode turned out. He'd already proven himself capable of going from high school teacher to drug kingpin. Being killed or arrested wouldn't have changed that.

I disagree that Lydia had to die because she was keeping a business going that "destroys lives." You could say the same of alcohol and tobacco. Lydia didn't deserve to die just because she helped people have access to a chemical that's bad for them. Those meth addicts are responsible for what they put in their own bodies. In no way is it justice for her to be murdered for that reason ... no more than murdering a Marlboro CEO.

I suppose she had to go because she might hire someone to come after Walt's family, but she seemed content to leave things as they were, so her death is troubling, to me.

[I'm Murrin]

Lydia was the one that threatened Skyler and Holly, and she's the type to go overboard when it's about protecting herself.

[lucimay]

Oh, and all those lives ruined by Walt's meth? Happened offscreen, so they just don't matter.

the very reason I didn't watch the series at all.

(ok I watched one episode in the beginning of the second season
but the premise just wasn't ever gonna interest me - too much
personal baggage surrounding substance abuse for me to stomach
it)

[Cail]

No, I don't agree that it was Disney. The man lost his life, his family. Sure, he gets to give his kids some money, so he did achieve what he wanted in the end. But I don't get these comments about his legacy remaining intact; he didn't achieve that in this episode. The legacy he cared about--being Heisenberg--wouldn't have been affected one way or the other, no matter how this episode turned out. He'd already proven himself capable of going from high school teacher to drug kingpin. Being killed or arrested wouldn't have changed that.

Sure it would have. He knew that Jesse was still cooking and "his" blue meth was still out there (and good).

He was livid when Badger and Skinny Pete thought he was still cooking. His body was found at the Nazi's lab, ergo it was his meth. Legacy intact.