Kevin's Watch

I second Jenn's assessment of Kirk the young Turk.

I do wonder whether the original series timeline featured the Spock/Uhura relationship.

That said, I enjoyed the new movie for what it was -- an extension of the franchise. I can see sequel potential for bringing the new reality back into line with the rest of the series. Shouldn't be too hard to do, as they're already playing around with making time-travel wormholes. And I did think the casting was excellent (tho they'll have to figure out some explanation for the new Chekhov's curly do...).

if one drop of the red matter destroyed the entire Vulcan planet, how is it that the entire big red ball of the stuff didnt implode the universe?

More holes than swiss cheese but I still enjoyed it, fit like an old familiar comfortable glove.

Heh, good point.

I think I was the only one that didn't like it, and if I hadn't been with such good company I'd probably want my time back.

Nicest thing I can say is that it was well cast. Aside from that... I had issues with it. Have been told I am a harsh critic. This is true.

Um.... didn't the almost nekked scene of Kirk and the green chick make it worth twice the movie price alone?????

I could totally picture you in green makeup, CmJ. Oops, did I type that out loud?

lorin wrote:if one drop of the red matter destroyed the entire Vulcan planet, how is it that the entire big red ball of red matter didnt implode the universe?

Yeah, that crossed my mind, too, but I didn't let it bother me unduly. I'm sure physicists out there are blogging away about the many ways that this film disobeys Newton and Einstein.


One of the most implausible yet most inventive sequences was when Chekhov managed to lock onto and beam up Kirk and Sulu while they were in freefall above Vulcan. I really don't give a fart how far-fetched it may be when the scene is done so well. That is the most exciting use of the transporter I've ever seen in Star Trek. The transporter effects are also the coolest yet.

Sorus wrote: I think I was the only one that didn't like it, and if I hadn't been with such good company I'd probably want my time back.

Sorus, you rock!

Not so implausible Matrixman as they'd be at a constant rate of fall!

A couple of things occurred to me, criticising time travel is fair enough but when you look back, Star Trek 4, First Contact and a whole bunch of episodes used it; in the Trek world it is a common enough phenomenon.

The other thing is that I think a lot of the excitement this has generated is in no small part in that the characters are set to grow: with so many of the previous films the characters are diminishing, growing old and past the realistic service age and capability................. sort of like Space Cowboys in the 23rd century. By that I mean we get jokes about them getting short sighted and their characters are using their age and experience rather than jumping into the thick of things. That only lasts so long and can only go so long: the cast are dying off!

I think the comment about the refresh being like the Bond refresh is a good one as they both had aged hero's and were tied to legacies of past events stretching back to the sixties!

One other observation, by the time we get to the later series/movies, everyone's at peace...... nice prospect but dull dramatically! The new guys can go to war with the Kilingons with gusto and zero political correctness.

Okay, I've actually read through the whole thread now, and as promised I'm going to repeat my tangent for the people who missed it last night.

Spoiler

And DLB, sorry to disappoint, but I hated it for totally different reasons than you. Yeah, I could kind of see the Galaxy Quest/Starship Troopers aspect, but that didn't bother me. I liked the humor. I love satire and parody.

The whole keeping with the TOS line of the only women in Starfleet being low-ranks in mini-skirts really annoyed me. Especially since in the original pilot, Pike's first officer was a woman, and they changed that for what? Fear that Spock would be overshadowed? That's not very 21st century, let alone 23rd.

All the macho action sequences. Why are they sending down people who know hand-to-hand combat? Did I miss something regarding why that was necessary? The whole Highlander-esque sword fight on the edge of oblivion while your enemies are drilling a giant hole in the planet and every second counts was absurd. And after they defeat the Romulans in hand-to-hand combat, they realize that the guy who died had been carrying the explosive charges necessary for destroying the mining beam - so what do they do? They pull out their phasers and shoot the machinery. Argh. If they'd shot the frakking Romulans they could have stopped the beam before it reached the core, and maybe saved the planet.

People hanging by their fingertips an inch away from certain death. How many times? Enough already. We know they're not going to fall.

The biker dude Romulans. Parents, don't name your kids after degenerate Roman emperors. You might get what you're asking for. Nero as the main villain was a one-dimensional petulant twit with the IQ of a stoat. Works on some levels, but I prefer charismatic villains with redeeming qualities. And what was with that ship? Sure, it looked cool, but I got the feeling that most of it probably didn't serve any purpose. Those Romulans were just really into spikes.

The time travel thing didn't bother me much. Yes, it's been done to death. Yes, there are always far-fetched coincidences. My favorite episode was a time-travel episode, so I might be a little biased into defending it.

I liked the casting, though Chekov was a bit overdone. I loved the special effects. Soundtrack was decent.

Edit: Added spoiler tags.

Loved the movie, but still am trying to figure out how

Spoiler

Nero armed a freighter without the help of other Romulans, seeing as how Romulus was destroyed and all.

McCoy, Uhura, and Spock were wonderfully cast.

Oh, and almost forgot:

Spoiler

Spock being given command and immediately ditching the Enterprise to beam down to Vulcan.

Sorus wrote:

Spoiler

The whole keeping with the TOS line of the only women in Starfleet being low-ranks in mini-skirts really annoyed me. Especially since in the original pilot, Pike's first officer was a woman, and they changed that for what? Fear that Spock would be overshadowed? That's not very 21st century, let alone 23rd.

That is a very good point, Sorus. I have no answer to that. To its credit, ST:TNG made amends in that area. And I'm a fan of Janeway (much more than of Picard, in fact).

Sorus wrote:Oh, and almost forgot:

Spoiler

Spock being given command and immediately ditching the Enterprise to beam down to Vulcan.

I thought that was pretty clear:

Spoiler

Vulcan was dying, and the elders who held the essence of their history and culture would die too unless someone went into the temple(?) that they had taken refuge in.

Spock was the best person to reach it quickly, and convince them immediately.

I thought we were through with spoiler tags here.

We saw it again yesterday, and my opinion of it hasn't changed. My wife was marking her own private check list at every catch phrase.

"I'm a doctor, not a physicist!" Bingo!
"Fascinating." Bingo!

And so on. At least she didn't do it the first time around or I would have missed some stuff.

Sorus, I don't mind that you have different reasons for hating this - just as long as you hate it.

Sorus wrote:The whole keeping with the TOS line of the only women in Starfleet being low-ranks in mini-skirts really annoyed me. Especially since in the original pilot, Pike's first officer was a woman, and they changed that for what? Fear that Spock would be overshadowed? That's not very 21st century, let alone 23rd.

Maybe women of the 23rd century take better care of themselves than 21st century women, and they like to flaunt this with mini-skirts. Maybe people of the 23rd century have moved on from 20th century feminist guilt and they just promote the best person for the job, rather than picking a women just to make things "fair," to fill a quota, or to appease one's political expectations. Maybe these 23rd century people are mature enough, socially, to realize the human body is a thing of beauty and don't have the hangups we do today. Or maybe this is a movie based on a 60s TV show when miniskirts were popular. However you view it, this is one of the strangest complaints I've seen. Did you like the original series?

Honestly, I didn't even notice the points you're talking about (okay, I did notice the miniskirts ). I think your observation is very "21st century," and you're applying these dated expectations (shaped by modern feminism, etc.) to a fictional story about the future. You almost guarantee that you're not going to have a good time if you view entertainment through the lense of a political movement that has its roots in anger and indignation. I think it's great that women have made huge advances in the real world, but when we start viewing fictional worlds with disdain for their lack of fairness we expect from the real world, well, like I said: recipe for ruining a good time. In my opinion.

I like miniskirts. Miniskirts are fun. Expecting fiction to conform to feminist quotas is *not* fun.

All the macho action sequences. Why are they sending down people who know hand-to-hand combat? Did I miss something regarding why that was necessary? The whole Highlander-esque sword fight on the edge of oblivion while your enemies are drilling a giant hole in the planet and every second counts was absurd. And after they defeat the Romulans in hand-to-hand combat, they realize that the guy who died had been carrying the explosive charges necessary for destroying the mining beam - so what do they do? They pull out their phasers and shoot the machinery. Argh. If they'd shot the frakking Romulans they could have stopped the beam before it reached the core, and maybe saved the planet.

You do realize that lots of wimpy, nerdy guys watch this franchise, right? Guys who live vicariously through their mythic heroes. For purely marketing reasons, the things you're complaining about make perfect sense. But they also make sense for narrative reasons. The juxtaposition of "primitive" physical combat with the advanced technology and weapons reminds us that no matter how "advanced" we become, certain physical truths will always remain--like the necessity of physical combat. Maybe it's a guy thing, a truth that women do not have at the forefront of their thoughts (because they often have men to perform this service for them). But speaking as a guy, I thought the hand-to-hand combat rocked. Pulling a trigger is so easy. Using your fists is not only in character for Kirk, but it's also damn masculine.

Maybe you're not the target audience for this kind of movie. Nothing wrong that. Hell, I'm not the target audience for Kate Hudson movies, but I don't pay money to see them and then trash them for not holding up to my "macho" expectations or political philosophy, or complain that they don't have enough fight scenes.

People hanging by their fingertips an inch away from certain death. How many times? Enough already. We know they're not going to fall.

Yeah, that got old. Good point.

[Edit: I though Uhura's character was a lot stronger than the original. She effortless resisted Kirk's advances, and chose a man of intellect rather than a man of brawn. She was smart, classy, and strong. Her attire didn't detract from these qualities, in my opinion.]

Dang...Malik's good at this, isn't he?

Malik23 in response to Sorus wrote: You do realize that lots of wimpy, nerdy guys watch this franchise, right? Guys who live vicariously through their mythic heroes.

If I could interject, this is also why Neo from the Matrix appeals to me so much. He's the ultimate computer nerd hero: he neatly fulfills this geek's male fantasy by kicking ass when he needs to, without having to be built like a muscle tank, while at the same time not being afraid to ask for help when he needs it.

Chris Pine's Kirk is much more overtly masculine than Keanu's Neo, but like Keanu, Pine is very physical without being a particularly imposing figure. And Kirk's self-assuredness in his masculinity is part of his appeal.

[Edit: I though Uhura's character was a lot stronger than the original. She effortless resisted Kirk's advances, and chose a man of intellect rather than a man of brawn. She was smart, classy, and strong. Her attire didn't detract from these qualities, in my opinion.]

That's how I felt about her, too.

Sorus wrote:And after they defeat the Romulans in hand-to-hand combat, they realize that the guy who died had been carrying the explosive charges necessary for destroying the mining beam - so what do they do? They pull out their phasers and shoot the machinery. Argh. If they'd shot the frakking Romulans they could have stopped the beam before it reached the core, and maybe saved the planet.

Actually, Kirk lost his phaser at the beginning of the fight. They used the dead Romulans' weapons on the drill. Barring Kirk not losing his phaser (which he did twice in the movie--he needs to work on that ), the physical fighting had to come first.

Pardon me, I'm just having fun picking at the nits.

dANdeLION wrote:Loved the movie, but still am trying to figure out how Nero armed a freighter without the help of other Romulans, seeing as how Romulus was destroyed and all.

We are talking about Romulans. Aren't all their space-faring vehicles armed? Plus, a mining vessel should be stocked with a sufficient supply of combustibles, and the sensors to find what they needed over the 25 years they waited for Spock.

been back from the theater about an hour.
I'm not into nit picking.
and I too love the humor from TOS.
so I'll just say what I texted to dlb as the credits scrolled...



*mr speedy text himself has chosen NOT to respond*

ItisWritten wrote:Pardon me, I'm just having fun picking at the nits.

dANdeLION wrote:Loved the movie, but still am trying to figure out how Nero armed a freighter without the help of other Romulans, seeing as how Romulus was destroyed and all.

We are talking about Romulans. Aren't all their space-faring vehicles armed? Plus, a mining vessel should be stocked with a sufficient supply of combustibles, and the sensors to find what they needed over the 25 years they waited for Spock.

They had the weapons when they first came through the singularity and blew up daddy Kirk's ship. Then they disappeared for 25 years, and reappeared, taking out the planet Vulcan and 7 Starfleet ships in the process. Had they spent those 25 years looking for more weaponry, I think someone would have spotted them. Besides, their weapons were from the future, which is why they were so effective. And if they had to search for weapons, why didn't they take the weapons off of Spock's ship? Other than the Red Matter, they seemed to leave it completely intact.

That being said, I loved the movie.

ItisWritten wrote:I thought that was pretty clear:

Vulcan was dying, and the elders who held the essence of their history and culture would die too unless someone went into the temple(?) that they had taken refuge in.

Spock was the best person to reach it quickly, and convince them immediately.

I got that, it just seemed with a planet-destroying lunatic running amok, it probably wasn't a great idea for the captain of the only ship that knew what was happening and had a chance at stopping further destruction to put himself in personal jeopardy to save a few people. Yes, it was a truly horrible decision to have to make and I'm not saying he did the wrong thing, but don't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

Malik23 wrote: Maybe women of the 23rd century take better care of themselves than 21st century women, and they like to flaunt this with mini-skirts. Maybe people of the 23rd century have moved on from 20th century feminist guilt and they just promote the best person for the job, rather than picking a women just to make things "fair," to fill a quota, or to appease one's political expectations. Maybe these 23rd century people are mature enough, socially, to realize the human body is a thing of beauty and don't have the hangups we do today. Or maybe this is a movie based on a 60s TV show when miniskirts were popular. However you view it, this is one of the strangest complaints I've seen. Did you like the original series?

I'm not talking about filling quotas or political expectations. This is an advanced future society where equality is - supposedly - important, and I find it difficult to believe that all the best people for the job are male.

I think that miniskirts are a darned impractical dress code to have aboard a starship, and given options, not everyone would choose to wear them.

Did I like the original series? It was good for what it was. At the time, it was progressive in many ways. But we've come a long way since then, and I guess I was hoping for that to be acknowledged. You're right, maybe I'm not the target audience. But, speaking as someone who used to attend conventions on a regular basis, 'wimpy, nerdy guys' are a smaller part of the fanbase than most people probably believe.

Malik23 wrote:

[Edit: I though Uhura's character was a lot stronger than the original. She effortless resisted Kirk's advances, and chose a man of intellect rather than a man of brawn. She was smart, classy, and strong. Her attire didn't detract from these qualities, in my opinion.]

Agreed.

ItisWritten wrote:

Sorus wrote:And after they defeat the Romulans in hand-to-hand combat, they realize that the guy who died had been carrying the explosive charges necessary for destroying the mining beam - so what do they do? They pull out their phasers and shoot the machinery. Argh. If they'd shot the frakking Romulans they could have stopped the beam before it reached the core, and maybe saved the planet.

Actually, Kirk lost his phaser at the beginning of the fight. They used the dead Romulans' weapons on the drill. Barring Kirk not losing his phaser (which he did twice in the movie--he needs to work on that ), the physical fighting had to come first.

Okay, got me on that one. I had seen where they got the weapons, but apparently forgot.

All that said, I have been giving more thought to the plot, and I really like how they are stuck in the darker 'alternate' universe. Nice to see a change to the time travel theme, which usually ends with everything being fixed and no one remembering what happened. They'll probably find a way to fix it in the sequel, but for now it's interesting to think of what an impact the loss of Vulcan would have on the Federation as we know it from TNG and other later series.