Kevin's Watch

I never considered Elena to be insane until I read SRD's "What has gone before" before reading ROTE; specifically this:

"The Council is now led by High Lord Elena, his daughter by his rape of Lena. With her, [Covenant] begins to experience the real consequences of his violence: it is clear to him - if to no one else - that she is not completely sane."

Yes. And she does display some behaviors that are not normal from the start. Maybe not so "in your face" not normal, but not normal all the same.

I didn't actually realize she was either... reading through the whole TIW.
(I was actually concerned that reflects ahem, interestingly... on me...)

But then it made sense..

And as far as others not necessarily noticing she was insane... yeah, that can make sense; she's still beautiful, passionate, legitimately compassionate, still able to wield her intelligence with power... all those things make people WAY more blind to a person's fatal flaws.

johnnyredleader- btw, sorry I'm taking so long to respond to your point; I keep telling myself I'm also going to post a quote from TIW.
and being lazy.

MsMary wrote:Yes. And she does display some behaviors that are not normal from the start. Maybe not so "in your face" not normal, but not normal all the same.

Exactly. It was clear to me while reading the first time that Elena was unbalanced. Not just eccentric or odd, but unbalanced and possibly dangerously so.

How Foul must have laughed!

Well if you class Elena as dangerously unbalanced then by definition you have to add covenant, linden, Troy, Kevin, berek and a whole host of characters from the series. All of which have immense responsibility on their shoulders.

Incidentally all of which who were key influences in the story.

I won't repeat earlier posts but considering covenants manipulation, betrayal and Subtle rejection are you surprised that Elena acted a bit strange on route to the earth blood. Add to that she was given a weapon capable of winning the war, not to mention the effects of the horse rite, which the ranyhyn didn't forgive themselves for thousands of years after the cataclysm.
It's easy to take behavior out of context.

Btw my understanding of the what happened before was not written by SRD

Ah, I remember this line: "Thomas Covenant, you do not altogether comprehend Lena my mother. I am a woman -- human like any other. And I have chosen you to be my companion on this quest. Surely my choice reveals my mother's heart as well as my own. I am her daughter. From birth I lived in her care, and she taught me. Unbeliever, she did not teach me any anger or bitterness toward you." --
No, Lena did not teach her that, but living with her mother's madness certainly seems to me to have met Elena had a subsumed anger and bitterness that, what with the Oath of Peace, she could not assuage.

And of course there was this:
"Ah, he was a dour parent. His heart's love ran in broken channels -- yearning and grief and, yes, rage against you were diminishless for him, finding new paths when the old were turned or dammed. But he gave to Lena my mother and to me all a father's tenderness and devotion. Judge of him by me, Thomas Covenant. When dreaming of you took Lena's thoughts from me -- when Atiaran lost in torment her capacity to care for me, and called to herself all Trell her husband's attention -- then Triock son of Thuler stood beside me. He is my father."



Actually, she was given a weapon which could deal a heck of a blow if the wielder could figure out how best to use it. Amok tried.
"If any drinker were to say to the Fire-Lions of Mount Thunder, 'Leave your bare slopes, attack and lay waste Ridjeck Thome,' they would at once strive with all their strength to obey. This Power can achieve anything which lies within the scope of the commanded."

And then on the hazards of the Command itself:
"The first of these hazards -- first, but perhaps not foremost -- is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged -- the Power cannot compel him.
"This alone might have given Kevin pause. Perhaps he did not drink of the Blood because he could not conceive how to levy any Command against the Despiser. But there is another and subtler hazard. Here any soul with the courage to drink may give a Command -- but there are few who can foresee the outcome of what they have enacted. When such immeasurable force is unleashed upon the Earth, any accomplishment may recoil upon its accomplisher. If a drinker were to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone, perhaps the Stone's evil would survive uncontained to blight the whole Land. Here the drinker who is not also a prophet risks self-betrayal. Here are possibilities of Desecration which even High Lord Kevin in his despair left slumbering and untouched."

Oh, all of that broke my heart. Here is the Power of Command, and really there is nothing more perilous!

[see below!]

Tefazipipo wrote: she was given a weapon which could deal a heck of a blow if the wielder could figure out how best to use it. Amok tried.
"If any drinker were to say to the Fire-Lions of Mount Thunder, 'Leave your bare slopes, attack and lay waste Ridjeck Thome,' they would at once strive with all their strength to obey.

I know the Power doesn't work on Foul, but that bit with the Fire-Lions would have definitely ruined his day.

Actually, If I had the Power of Command, one thing I would do to severely limit Foul's influence and reach would be to phrase a Command something like this:

"moksha, turiya, samadhi: CEASE TO BE!"

Foul would feel that sting, no question.

I think we have to give Elena some credit here, she went for the jugular however wrong it ended up. Wiping out fouls crèche or the ravers would only ever be a stalling move. Even covenant only temporarily stopped him twice. I think she knew she had to think big and creative if covenant wa refusing to get stuck in, Kevin had already knocked him back a few thousand years

Grasping that your enemy is an immortal being that is stronger than ghosts is not something you usually have to consider.

The lords all knew that foul was never going to be defeated with conventional methods and the power of command was unknown right up until they found it. Maybe not the best idea she had but wiping out fleshharrowers Army would have used up the one shot power on holding back foul for a few more years at best. A larger army would end up being sent, one of the reasons Kevin invoked the ritual
Only covenant had the power to stop him

jonnyredleader wrote:I think we have to give Elena some credit here, she went for the jugular however wrong it ended up. Wiping out fouls crèche or the ravers would only ever be a stalling move. Even covenant only temporarily stopped him twice. I think she knew she had to think big and creative if covenant wa refusing to get stuck in, Kevin had already knocked him back a few thousand years

I disagree to some extent. The Ravers had plagued the Land for milennia, how much evil did they do and help Foul do?

I think eliminating them would have been a good move. Foul would have been pissed as they are not replaceable.

Im not sure, certainly it sounds a better idea but no foul no ravers and granted it wouldve handicapped foul for a bit, certainly more effective than sending kevin but foul is adept at finding ways to meet his designs. he'd find an elohim or worse i.e kastenessen etc to work on his behalf, foul doesnt actually do the dirty work himself, tools like drool, ravers, viles are his speciality. remove one and he'd replace with another. In the end Foul himself has to be dealt with

jonnyredleader wrote:Im not sure, certainly it sounds a better idea but no foul no ravers and granted it wouldve handicapped foul for a bit, certainly more effective than sending kevin but foul is adept at finding ways to meet his designs. he'd find an elohim or worse i.e kastenessen etc to work on his behalf, foul doesnt actually do the dirty work himself, tools like drool, ravers, viles are his speciality. remove one and he'd replace with another. In the end Foul himself has to be dealt with

Ok I agree with this.

One thing, though...you said "no Foul no Ravers" but this isn't necessarily so. I may be mis-remembering this but I believe they existed before he was stuck under the Arch, he didn't create them he just subjugated them.

If Foul was destroyed they'd just be free of servitude to him. IIRC their main gripe was against the One Forest, they didn't care about humans one way or the other before Foul enslaved them.

Well then comes the fun question. Were they human before they died? Was their gripe against the One Forest founded on a reason, or was it just that they were monsters from birth? Was there a time before they were evil?

Having read many fanfics over the years, I can believe that there are the Jehannum-meets-this-extraordinary-female/male/urVile/renegade-Elohim and turns against Lord Foul for love, overwhelmed by a feeling he's never known that we remember.

Or the stories of how their bastard father abused their mother and taught the boys to denigrate her, lalalala. Ooh. That's not funny. People write these things, though.

Tefazipipo wrote:Well then comes the fun question. Were they human before they died? Was their gripe against the One Forest founded on a reason, or was it just that they were monsters from birth? Was there a time before they were evil?

Having read many fanfics over the years, I can believe that there are the Jehannum-meets-this-extraordinary-female/male/urVile/renegade-Elohim and turns against Lord Foul for love, overwhelmed by a feeling he's never known that we remember.

Or the stories of how their bastard father abused their mother and taught the boys to denigrate her, lalalala. Ooh. That's not funny. People write these things, though.

I don't care why they cause the devastation they do, unless they're repentant. If they're not, absolutely, any chance to take them out is acceptable and desired in my book. So, he replaces them, it'll still set him back 100+ years or more to gain another servant(s) as destructive, IMHO. 100 years to work on something better....

Tefazipipo wrote:Well then comes the fun question. Were they human before they died? Was their gripe against the One Forest founded on a reason, or was it just that they were monsters from birth? Was there a time before they were evil?

Having read many fanfics over the years, I can believe that there are the Jehannum-meets-this-extraordinary-female/male/urVile/renegade-Elohim and turns against Lord Foul for love, overwhelmed by a feeling he's never known that we remember.

Or the stories of how their bastard father abused their mother and taught the boys to denigrate her, lalalala. Ooh. That's not funny. People write these things, though.

Hmm do you have links to these sort of fanfics? Sounds interesting in a stupid sort of way.

sindatur wrote:I don't care why they cause the devastation they do, unless they're repentant. If they're not, absolutely, any chance to take them out is acceptable and desired in my book. So, he replaces them, it'll still set him back 100+ years or more to gain another servant(s) as destructive, IMHO. 100 years to work on something better....

100 years?!

Spoiler

I'll grant you that Kastennessen is more powerful than a Raver, but he's also thoroughly insane and probably not fun to interact with.

Drool was a moron. The Demondim were unpredictable, and had glaring weaknesses. The Ur-viles turned "good".

Foul would have more than 100 years of trouble, IMO, without the Ravers. Let's list their benefits:

1) They are unquestioningly evil and depraved. They enjoy what they do and won't be turning "good" a la the untrustworthy ur-Viles.

2) They can't be killed.

3) They can inhabit humans and hide out, infiltrating towns, villages, councils, etc.

4) Foul can dominate their wills and ensure perfect compliance (ex: don't possess Covenant).

5) There are three of them.

Without the Ravers, who's he going to get? A conniving, scheming croyel, that will betray Foul at first opportunity?

Spoiler

A loser like Roger? Maniacs like Kastenessen?

Morons like Drool?

I think it might be 1000 years, not 100, before he found as useful a tool as one Raver, let alone three!

Here's something to contemplate: before Elena could use the power of Command, the Ravers had all ready forced the Wanhym to abandon their Waymeets, possessed some Giants, and drive the Giants living in the Land to mass suicide. They've all ready done their part. I do not think Foul would have to wait long at all to just continue as planned without the Ravers. Sure, some pieces of the Illearth Stone would fall into someone's hands... in fact, one was all ready being carried by Korik and company to fight Foul, so we've lost the Bloodguard all ready also.

So, even without the breaking of the law of Death, we have Foul with superior numbers, including the powers of the ur-viles' strange lore. Foul could still take cause a lot of trouble for the Land's defenders.

Then there is the same problem that as near as we can tell, the Ravers could be evil incarnate like the Illearth Stone. Destroying them, like destroying the Illearth Stone, could release that evil contained in them all over the Land.

Of course, like the Illearth Stone, maybe nothing would happen when they were destroyed. The point is that Elena did not know, she only knew that the best course would involve defeating/containing Foul directly.

I would have commanded the Illearth Stone to cease to function for Lord Foul only. That would have crippled his ability to control and create new armies, would have freed Kevin from the stones influence so he didnt have to kill Elena, might even have caused his Ravers to rebel against him. In any case, that very threat would have prevented Foul from risking any other being having control of the stone and he would most likely have buried it where no one could ever recover it, thus removing a great evil from the Land.

All very good ideas and effective in the short term but the lords already had a precedent with Kevin. He'd caused big problems for foul for thousands of years and then foul pops up again and puts the land at the brink again. Covenant destroys the illearth stone then a few thousand years later the land is in a worse state without fouls ability to use that power.
Foul tried many schemes to destroy the world before he even came to the land, ravers are small fry however poisonous they are. Even dead Elena controlled them easily and they certainly weren't 100% loyal to Foul