Star Wars - The Force Awakens

[Hashi Lebwohl]

It is mentioned that when Luke left the other reason for him leaving was to go seek out the first Jedi temple. The location of this place would be a secret only because of its antiquity and the fact that only Jedi would have had a need to go there.

I suspect that the real goal of the Supreme Leader is to gather secrets that may have existed in the first temple. I also suspect that Luke learned things when he found it--not only facts which shocked him but also secrets that led him to abandon any desire to restore the Jedi order as it had been. Part of the reason the Jedi order had to fall in the prequel episodes is because it had become too top-heavy, too structured, and too formulaic--it had grown stale rather than being more like a living entity.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Yeah. I'm just not feeling it. Unintentional humor and R2D2 aside.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, Hashi. Again, I say how great the RotS book is. While fighting Palpatine, Yoda realizes he will lose. Not only he in the duel, but the Jedi vs the Sith in general. He sees that the Jedi have been preparing for the same kind of battle they've always fought with the Sith. But the Sith have been wiser, and have been changing. Maybe Luke realized he was trying to stay the same old ways up again, and, with the colossal failure of lead to, went away to learn a new way. Unfortunately, he didn't look particularly wise; only defeated.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

It looks, sounds, and feels like Star Wars, and that's a very good thing.

But.....

It's a reboot of Star Wars with old actors. It hits all the beats and plot points of the first film.

And as much as I like action set pieces......The storytelling was light. It suffered due to lasers and explosions and stuff.

It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. Considering i was convinced it was going to suck, I'm pleasantly surprised. But I wanted more. I will say that it blows the prequels out of the water.

Spoiler

You mean it wasn't necessary to blow up a third death star?
Or to hide the key secret in a lost unintelligible droid?
Or to find Star Wars royalty living the life of an anonymous orphan on a dessert planet?
Or to have Han Solo, Chewbacca, and the Millennium Falcon dropped in your lap?
Or to have Vader lite interrogate someone in a pain amplifier to discover the location of the rebel base?
Or to deactivate the Death Star's shield so the rebel attack can succeed?

What's not to love?

A couple of other thoughts:

1. Didn't the giant sith guy seen like an orc from LoTR?
2. I'm pretty certain that Harrison Ford made being killed off a precondition of participating.
3. What's with a storm trooper with a conscience? If that was possible before why did it take this long?
4. If Rey really is Luke's daughter, how can abandoning her to scrape by on a desert planet possibly be justified?

[/spoiler]

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Spoiler

3. What's with a storm trooper with a conscience? If that was possible before why did it take this long?
4. If Rey really is Luke's daughter, how can abandoning her to scrape by on a desert planet possibly be justified?

Spoiler

3. New Stormtroopers are just normal people taken at gunpoint from their families at a young age--involuntary conscription. I suppose they go through psychological conditioning as part of their training but perhaps being faced with killing innocent people shocked Finn (whose numerical identifier escapes me at the moment) back to reality.

4. What would be worse, abandoning Rey on Jakku or letting Snoke get hold of her?

[JIkj fjds j]

Spoiler

1. Didn't the giant sith guy seen like an orc from LoTR?

Spoiler

Maybe he isn't a giant and just that, a little orc with an inferiority complex. Like Big Helmet in Space Balls (:

[Fist and Faith]

Spoiler

What would be worse, abandoning Rey on Jakku or letting Snoke get hold of her?

Spoiler

He should've taken her with him.

The First Rule of Existence: Powers Converge. She was going to be found. Someone that strong in the Force? Strong enough to, without any training whatsoever, resist Ren? Ren, who is, presumably the second most powerful Bad Guy; who destroyed the new Jedi Order that Luke was forming; who Luke was apparently unable to defeat, and ran from? No way she wasn't going to be found. Even if she wasn't hidden away on the same planet that the final part of the map was hidden away on. So yeah, leave Rey to the clutches of Snoke and Ren.

It would have been far better to take her to this hidden location, where he could train her - until she began training him - and they could have fought together when Snoke and Ren eventually found them. They're stupid lucky that they have that chance now.

[JIkj fjds j]

When,

Spoiler

Kylo and Rey fight near the end of the film and the frozen ground cracks open and separates them,

I couldn't help thinking about the Bing and Bob movie, The Road to Utopia, where something similar happens there as well.

The plot is kinda interesting:

Spoiler

there is also a map in two pieces concerned with a character named Ace Larson, not a million miles away from the name, Lor San Tekka.

If the old Road movie is anything to go by then Kylo was adopted.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

When,

Spoiler

Kylo and Rey fight near the end of the film and the frozen ground cracks open and separates them,

Possibly, but I suspect this is merely plot fiat as well as a visual representation of the relationship between these two characters.

[SoulBiter]

It looks, sounds, and feels like Star Wars, and that's a very good thing.

But.....

It's a reboot of Star Wars with old actors. It hits all the beats and plot points of the first film.

And as much as I like action set pieces......The storytelling was light. It suffered due to lasers and explosions and stuff.

It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. Considering i was convinced it was going to suck, I'm pleasantly surprised. But I wanted more. I will say that it blows the prequels out of the water.

It was fun to watch and was indeed Star Wars. But Cail is spot on. The story should have been newer

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Just saw it. Liked it, although I must say that I'd gotten quite used to the cosmopolitan and realpolitik mojo of the Prequels. It was an adjustment going back to an older vibe, though there was also something else at work here, which made it "different" again from the Original Trilogy. Haven't put my finger on it yet, though it might not click until the next flick (assuming that it's not just my imagination). I have a feeling that this is shaping up to be bizarrely good in its own right.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

It was an adjustment going back to an older vibe, though there was also something else at work here, which made it "different" again from the Original Trilogy.

It is similar to reading the Second Chronicles--we know what is going on, in general, because we are familiar with the world but the rules and goals have changed just enough to throw us a little off-balance.

The First Order's stated goal of reconstituting the Empire under a centralized leader is only the obvious plot; the real plot has yet to be revealed.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Spoiler

Why are the forces defending the republic calling themselves the resistance and operating furtively out of hidden bases rather than operating openly, forcefully, and under the official auspices of the republic? Why is General Leia commanding a shadowy organization rather than the armies of the republic itself? I'm so confused.

[I'm Murrin]

Apparently that stuff's mainly covered in tie in novels, unfortunately.

Spoiler

Leia formed the Resistance because the Republic wasn't really willing to go up against the First Order openly, but they were supporting her insurgency under the table, as it were.

[Fist and Faith]

Spoiler

I was going to post the same problem you did, Doc. Which I do not think is answered by what you say, Murrin. Why the fucking fuck wouldn't the Republic openly oppose the First Order?!?!?!?!??? Snoke and Ben/Ren are doing exactly what Palpatine and Anakin/Vader did. What possible reason could there be for NOT taking them out as quickly as possible???

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Spoiler

During the Emperor's term of office, lasting nearly 30 years, he continued to concentrate power into his hands, which often included appointing governors to star systems who were completely loyal to the Emperor. When the Emperor died, there was no Senate so these governors basically became independent local powers answerable to no one except themselves. The Resistance is presumably fighting against these powers, hence the name. Besides, there is no real "empire" against which to rebel any more so the name Rebellion had to be abandoned.

I suspect that the first problems which arose after the death of the Emperor was that various admirals fought among themselves to see who would assume complete command of the military, which would make them the de facto ruler of the galaxy and that this person would need pledges of support from the above-mentioned governors in order to maintain power.

The First Order's problem is that not only are they having to fight the Resistance but they would also have to fight any regional system that wanted to maintain its newfound independence. If you are appointed by the Emperor you stay subservient and loyal out of fear; once he is gone the system is yours and you can dare anyone to take it from you.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Spoiler

So in essence the Republic cannot be said to exist in a meaningful way, unless it be the name for the power void the Empire left behind amid nostalgia for former times.

Reminds me a bit of a line Arthur says in Excalibur (not a coincidence no doubt):

"The fellowship was a brief beginning, a fair time that cannot be forgotten, and because it will not be forgotten, that fair time may come again."

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Spoiler

So in essence the Republic cannot be said to exist in a meaningful way, unless it be the name for the power void the Empire left behind amid nostalgia for former times.

Spoiler

Exactly. It has been nearly 30 years, yes, but the Senate probably reformed and has tried to recapture its old power but things didn't happen the way they wanted them to, given that some systems would want to become independent or retain independence, other systems who would have gone to war with each other but didn't because the Senate or Emperor wouldn't let them have since gone to war with each other, and various Senators would be vying for the coveted Prime Minister position (I think the term they used was Chancellor).

Truthfully, the old order which was set in place by the Republic and the the Emperor is gone forever, or at least until someone can muster enough political and/or military power to force everyone else back into that box. Without such a person or agency it would probably be centuries before systems begin coming back together into any sort of republic.

The galaxy of TFA is a mosaic of systems desperate to return to the Republic and Imperial systems trying to retain control and/or bring their neighbors under control with the First Order lurking about trying to bring everyone under control. The Republic is dead and the Emperor is dead so all the chaos which was bottled up has been released and is still in the process of being released. Good luck, Rey. Good luck, Finn.

[Fist and Faith]

Spoiler

Hashi, you're speaking of how we might reasonably assume things would go in the aftermath of the deaths of an emperor and his hugely powerful right-hand man in an empire that encompasses at least a big chunk of a galaxy. You are not speaking of how things have gone in the SW universe. At least we certainly don't know that that's how things have gone. All we know is that the New Republic is not powerful enough to stand up to the First Order, so the Resistance has to hide away and strike when they can. Exactly as the Rebellion did to the Empire. It's possible that things are just as they seem: Snoke is on his way to becoming a new emperor, with a powerful right-hand man. (They don't have to be as powerful as Palpatine and Vader, because their opposition isn't nearly as powerful as Palpatine's and Vader's was.)

I wouldn't be surprised if Snoke came from a distant part of the galaxy, or another galaxy entirely, when he felt the death of the Emperor and Vader. "Now's my chance!" It didn't leave a power vacuum only in the usual sense, but also a Force vacuum. All the Jedi but Luke, and all the Sith (maybe) were gone. If Snoke is a Force user, it was a golden opportunity.

Bad writing also does away with your ideas. heh

[Hashi Lebwohl]

It is never my fault if my ideas are better than someone else's, even if that person is the one who is supposed to be writing a decent story.