Kevin's Watch

Its possible that Foul's original plan was ruined by Linden's decision to head south into the mountains instead of north straight to Mount Thunder.

Covenant's order to "Find me" may also have been his warning not to go it alone to Mount Thunder.

Foul therefore may have ressurected Covenant and given him Jeremiah in some other plot to make Linden despair.

With both Covenant and Jeremiah trapped in Revelstone, Linden has all the more reason to expend as much power as possible in defense against the Demondim, and in doing so threatening the arch..

Also, Covenant himself may be controlled by a croyel. What better way to ruin Linden than to give her her Love back, but in a tainted form?

esmerlover wrote:What better way to ruin Linden than to give her her Love back, but in a tainted form?

Indeed....give her back something broken. Dunno if it would be a croyel, but it's an interesting theory, for sure...

Except for the fact that a croyel would be readily recognizable ("oh, Covenant, I didn't know you were a hunchback/I didn't know you had a little child!")... at least as far as we know, that is.

dlbpharmd wrote:Now, we all know that Covenant is the wild magic. SRD said sometime back that whenever anyone else uses wild magic, then Covenant must support that use - either consciously (as with Troy's attempt to rescue Elena) or sub-consciously (Linden's use of wild magic to heal.)

This is an interesting point... if Covenant is ALL wild magic, then according to this theory he is supporting Joan's use of wild magic to create caesures (perhaps subconsciously, because of the mixed feelings for her?)...

IF the man is the true Thomas Covenant, then I agree, it might be because the Staff of Law was gone from the Land (because Linden took it into the present - and time paradoxes suggest that in the Land's timeline, the Staff of Law did not exist at all between the time when Linden took it from the Waynhim and the time when Linden returned to the present, so this also means that there was no Staff of Law in the Land when Linden returned to the Land, and up until she returned to the past, unless you suppose that the Staff existed in the Land, hidden by the Waynhim, until Linden went back in time and recovered it, thus erasing the Staff's existence in the Land between that time and her return to the present... ah, the headaches!).

That is, maybe without the Staff of Law in the Land, he was able to "return" by himself - or he was brought back by someone else. It's interesting to note that by the end of WGW, after the group leaves Andelain, Covenant explicitly tells Linden that he doesn't want to be resurrected like Hollian did. I suppose 3500 years are enough to change your mind... but then again, returning to "life" might endanger the Arch of Time more than it would otherwise be endangered if he were just a spirit.

I guess we'll have to wait and see!

It's Thomas. SRD wouldn't make it not Thomas. But it might be a recalled Thomas, as in he came through a Falls. Anyway, it's Thomas. It would be really stupid to pull off some kind of "mission impossible" bullcrap & have him pull off a mask of power & say "Surprise! I'm really a raver! Boo!"

It's him. But he can't stay long. Something happens. Probably Esmer. So far whenever SRD has written himself into a corner he always used Esmer, the walking Dues Ex Machina.

I know that SRD is trying to make this last series the best, but it's my opinion that he's trying too hard. I mean there's a lot of things that I'm not buying. If Linden can perform surgery with "wild" magic then she should be able to use a Falls & burn Foul to cinders before he comes to power again this time. It just seems like we're being given a tall tale rather than the way it was before when it felt more crazy. I don't mean crazy as in Demondim & Esmer, that's not crazy it is stupid. I mean crazy as in the sunbane or Thomas Covenant's unwillingness and all the ethics and morals of everything. Ruins of the Earth (spelling on purpose) is more like a Giant's tall tale to spook their children at a campfire.

C'mon Zefa. Try to smile.
It is unfortunate that you feel the way you do about Ruins

Linden's inability to use wild magic, or trouble calling it up, rather, is due to the fact that Thomas Covenant is not there. In the past, with ONE exception, Linden always took the power from Covenant by "possessing" him. It was alive and ever-present within Covenant.
She did not need to call it up herself. Therefore it is completely plausible, and not at all inaccurate to say that she needs to learn how to trigger the wild magic.
How to find and open that door within her, and how to control it instead of just unleashing [it.

I also don't think in the least that Esmer is merely a way for SRD to write himself out of a corner. To me it is obvious that he has a big role in this series. A role that was thought out, not simply a way out of a bind.

Hopefully you will feel better after reading FR. Until then, hang in there, and think happy thoughts.

ZefaLefeLaH wrote:It just seems like we're being given a tall tale rather than the way it was before when it felt more crazy. I don't mean crazy as in Demondim & Esmer, that's not crazy it is stupid. I mean crazy as in the sunbane or Thomas Covenant's unwillingness and all the ethics and morals of everything. Ruins of the Earth (spelling on purpose) is more like a Giant's tall tale to spook their children at a campfire.

Indeed these books, and the characters in them, have always been *crazy*!
And now they are *insane*!

I enjoy the *insanity* in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, because, well, it's insane, and you never know what is going to happen!

Now the insanity is more *extravert* now! With extra-outrageous plot devices!

I *enjoy* this new physical craziness in the Land, because SRD has great devices (crazy ex-wife with white gold that shatters time) and a DANGEROUSLY CRAZY MIXED UP KID (Esmer) to crazily pull it off.

And the externalization of the insanity inherent in this story seems a natural progression to me (the insanity is now *outside* of the main pov character - and that needed to happen!)

And I think the "Falls" concept is excellent, because it makes the threat to the "Arch of Time" a terrifying and highly dynamic concept, whereas before, in 2C, it was like what-the-heck-is-that?

And now, with the Falls, we have real progress! That threat is brought directly into the action, and is made earth-shatteringly real.

The main character has herself together, and she *encounters* madness in the world around her, she *takes care* of a crazy old man, and is building herself an allegiance of the sane and pro-active to rally together and save the day! And I find this change of aspect very refreshing!

It's all about healing and building anew, it's about coming together, it's about making friends, and *building a new future together*. All of which is very upbeat and vital!

Let's face it! This book rocks!

[Oh, and I've just peeked up at the top of this page and found out what this thread is about! Yes of course it's Thomas Covenant! He's riding a horse!]

Just finished during lunch. I think that seeing Covenant's on the back of the horse doesn't really mean he is there. His body might have been resurrected, but his soul might be missing. "Find me!" could refer to his soul, not necessarily his body.

Also, I am a little worried about the main theme of this book. Thomas Covenant overcame his own inner Dispiser in the FCoTC and was redeemed in the SCoTC. I am not sure what SRD theme is for this one. Is TC going to take the place of the Creator, much like Hile took over for the Forrestal?

SRD has, in the past, stated it as follows (sorry, Insanity Falls, but if SRD saw fit to reveal it...; Urbanite, if you don't want a minor spoiler for Last chrons, don't read this):

Spoiler

First chrons - Covenant defeats Foul.
Second chrons - Covenant accepts Foul (hence his surrender in WGW).
Last chrons - Covenant becomes Foul (although it won't be as simple as that makes it sound).

[mod edit]

Where can we all view this coment by SRD?

Unfortunately it appears it wasn't a gradual interview comment, so I can't direct you to it, but I'm certain there are other members who know more about it, who may be able to tell you where it came from.

Edit - searched the Watch, and found the quote (once again, spoilers of theme for Last Chrons):

Spoiler

In the First Chronicles, Thomas Covenant faces Lord Foul and defeats him. In the Second Chronicles, Thomas Covenant surrenders to Lord Foul and accepts him. In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul. Following the psychological paradigm through, what happens at the point that you become your own other self is that you become whole, and the universe is made new.

According to the topic I found this in, it's from one of the Structured Interviews on the site.

[mod edit]

Not in any of the SI on the sight. I've read most evey interview that he's done and have never seen this before. If I were SRD I would not give away the ending in this way.
Anyone else know where this originated?

Murrin - please allow each reader to decide for themselves whether they want to see those indiscretions, by using the blackout feature.

Thank you!

[EDIT: Thanks to the moderator who has now *implemented* this request]

Jerico: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4664
That's where I got the quote, and (edit:) I was wrong; it says that one of them thought it was in the interview, but it was actually in "the WA Senior book".

Insanity Falls: Quit acting like you have the authority to tell me what to do. I made a point of saying it was a spoiler in my post, and since it was an SRD quote, I believed that warning sufficient. You may be interested to know that the moderators' consensus on this issue (triggered by your earlier complaints) was that if SRD saw fit to reveal something, then posting of it is ok.

Murrin: I understand your irritation, but you should make some tea or something. Calmness is good

Insanity Falls: Moderators and established members will happily consider any suggestions/objections, but there are two points you should bear in mind:

1) Once the moderators/admins have made their decision that is the decision, so if it's not the answer you wanted, don't whinge.

2) Joining a message board and immediately taking a demanding and abrasive stance with veteran members and mods is foolish and downright rude. Knock it off. The more confrontational you are about your issues, the less inclined we will be to help. We are human, after all.

CovenantJr wrote:Murrin: I understand your irritation, but you should make some tea or something. Calmness is good

I think you're right, CJ. I was feeling tired and a little irritated when I made that post. I usually try to avoid this sort of thing.

Insanity Falls, I apologise for being rude in my last post, but this issue had been covered before, and recently, so I did not appreciate your taking umbrage at my post.

CovenantJr wrote:We are human, after all.

Speak for yourself.

I was shocked and hugely upset when I first read what has been addressed to me in this thread.

I wish to do what I can to set things right with everyone.

Firstly thanks for Murrin for the apology "for being rude". Gladly accepted!
And thanks to CovenantJr for his *efforts* to help out here.
And thanks to the moderator who has stepped in and actioned my request!
Thank you!

Now please allow me to defend my dignity!

Murrin wrote:if you don't want a minor spoiler for Last chrons, don't read this

Murrin, that is a MAJOR spoiler, about the ending of The Last Dark - about the grand finale of the entire Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (!!!!!!!!!) - which you left uncovered and easily seen.

Murrin wrote:Insanity Falls: Quit acting like you have the authority to tell me what to do.

I have only ever made a single *polite request* to you

Insanity Falls wrote:Murrin - please allow each reader to decide for themselves whether they want to see those indiscretions, by using the blackout feature. Thank you!

which I also sent you directly as a private message to *ensure* that it reached you, and *because Creator had told me* that sending private messages was "the way to go"

Insanity Falls (in private message) wrote:Please allow every reader to choose themselves whether they see those remarks, by using the blackout feature. Thank you.

Now the title of that private message was "Black it out!", and that was intended in a cheekily friendly manner, (as we had exchanged friendly words before). I am sorry that I gave it a curt title! I wished to cause no offence!

I have had no contact with you except what I have now relayed above!
*All* I have asked you is to use a spoiler *black-out*, for the *benefit* of other *newbies* like me, and the "Quit acting like ..." implication is somewhat far-fetched!

Murrin wrote:You may be interested to know that the moderators' consensus on this issue (triggered by your earlier complaints) was that if SRD saw fit to reveal something, then posting of it is ok.

If this is true, then you and I have been told *very different things* by the moderators. The moderators have told *me* that they are *considering* this issue , and when they have decided together on a best course of action, *they will get back to me!*

Naturally, when I then encountered you (yourself a moderator!), doing the *very thing* that I had asked the moderators to make sure was done only under spoiler blackout, I was shocked and upset - and I have *actually responded* politedly and gently.

CovenantJr wrote:1) Once the moderators/admins have made their decision that is the decision, so if it's not the answer you wanted, don't whinge.

The moderators/admins have told me they are together *considering* how to deal with my issue, and have *not yet* informed me of a decision.
I have not whinged at all!
I think that impication is outrageous!

What has happened is that I originally brought up the general issue with a moderator, and then I brought up two instances of open spoiling to their attention *as they happened*. When dlbpharmd contacted me (in his role as moderator) about another matter, I also brought it the whole issue directly with dlbpharmd. That is just natural!

When a *moderator* (Murrin) went and posted the big spoiler themselves, *without blackout*, I then brought the whole thing up directly with Jay (I had not done so originally as Jay is presently avoiding the Runes forum as Jay has not yet finished the book.) In the circumstances, that was appropriate, as Jay actually acknowledged.

[EDIT: In response to this Jay posted A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT asking for blackouts to be put on these spoilers. At the time I wrote this post I did not yet know of that announcement]
(I was also not told that an announcement had been made. I discovered it by chance!)

CovenantJr wrote:2) Joining a message board and immediately taking a demanding and abrasive stance with veteran members and mods is foolish and downright rude. Knock it off.

My messages to the moderators have been polite, civil, and outright complimentary, and I have only ever pointed out needs, and made REQUESTS , the reason for which (for the kind consideration of unsuspecting newbies, and their protection from *inadvertantly* finding out what is expected to happen at the end of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) I have always given!!!!

That I have "immediately taken a demanding an abrasive stance" with moderators is simply false and is an outrageous slander!! And I massively refute it!!

I was wild with a member who displayed this spoiler in big bold letters across the screen like this, yet I think that is understandable and acceptable, as I was responding to that member's reckless inconsideration for other readers, and because this is a really big spoiler (the BIGGEST!!).

In general I have really I have taken great care to be genial and kindly, and my first messages to a moderator were especially civil.

The titles of many of my posts to the moderators (eg. "Kevin's Watch is in danger from Falls!") indicate that I have taken the whole thing in *good humour*.

I *resent* the slurs on my character that have been suggested at here.

I do accept that this has happened thanks to the ease of getting wires crossed on the net, especially when there are several people involved!

Let us please make up and be happy friends!

I like this forum very much. I have great respect for and gratitude to it's contributors and moderators. I am glad I found it! I wish to get on happily with everyone here, and I don't wish to piss any one off! Quite the opposite!

I WANT TO REVEL!

I think you can see by the spoiler blocks; dlbpharmd has addressed your issue.

However, as I was one that indicated I would get back to you, I should have also PM'd also to close the loop. Please accept my apology.

BTW, thanks for putting this message in ONE post!

Well I am fairly new to the watch and don't know what the WA senior book is? But saying that it is an acurate quote. I think that SRD could be pretty open about the meaning;

Spoiler

Covenant becomes Foul

I mean what does Foul want? He wants to escape what he thinks is his prison. And after what, seven thousand years that TC knows of and quite a bit longer for the peoples of that earth have been subjected to Foul. TC wants him to escape too!
I see it like this and I believe it is a theme of the series 'you can't kill despite' which means you can't kill Foul. TC knows this and knows that the only way out is to destroy the earth or break the arch to end the suffering. Some infections have to be cut out, and the patient may die ( the patient being the earth). So in a sense TC would do what Foul wants, because he wants it too. The key is not to let Foul have the White Gold, because that would put him on equal footing with the Creator

yes, that's the crux (no pun intended) of it..

Perhaps someone could enlighten me re: the definition of despite, which although I always equate with evil, SRD seems to mean something more to it?