Political ramifications of London bombings

[Cail]

Sorry, I don't see any "vagueness" at all. The man left a building that was under surveilance. He was observed acting suspiciously upon entering a train station shortly after there have been bombings at train stations. The police attempted to stop and question him, and he ran, ignoring their requests.

He's the only person at fault for the shooting.

[Avatar]

Well, apart from the utter subjectiveness of "acting suspiciously," the suspicious activity was apparently evident well before he got to the station.

The fact that he was wearing a "big coat" (disputed apparently though) and that he was acting suspiciously, only seemed important when he was in the station, but was not enough for them to stop him and question him before he got there.

If they had tried to stop him before he arrived, and he ran, why only wait until he was in the station? If they only tried to stop him in the station, despite the fact that they'd thought him suspicious enough to follow, then there's a mistake on their parts too.

I'm not really disagreeing with you on the basics, just thinking that the story seems a little scant on the details that would justify them shooting him. It's understandable that they did, but the reasoning seems, (from what we know), a little sketchy IMO.

--A

[CovenantJr]

In fact, chasing you with a truncheon is about the only choice they usually have. Running from the police is usually a good bet.

As I once heard Robin Williams say, "Stop, or I'll shout 'stop' again!"

[Avatar]

Exactly. It always amused me really, especially coming from a country where the police often shoot before they shout.

--A

[Avatar]

Just an update on the "suspect" that was shot:

Nothing suspect about suspect
17/08/2005

London - An innocent Brazilian man shot dead by British police who mistook him for a London bombing suspect had taken a seat on a train and was tackled by a police surveillance officer before being shot, according to an account of events broadcast on Tuesday.

British police had claimed that 27-year-old electrician Jean Charles de Menezes didn't obey an order to stop as they tailed him into London's Stockwell underground train station a day after a series of bombs planted on London's transit system failed to fully detonate.

Menezes had emerged from a house that police had under surveillance, believing it was linked to the bombings.

Britain's ITV television news claimed on Tuesday, citing security footage, that Menezes entered the station at a normal walking pace, stopping to pick up a newspaper.

The television station claimed that witness accounts, included in an investigation report into the shooting, said Menezes was seated on the train before being shot.

A man sitting opposite Menezes is quoted as saying: "Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left.

"He was pointing a small black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me. He pointed the gun at the right hand side of the man's head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man's head when the first shot was fired."

A police surveillance officer described how he wrapped his arms around Menezes and pushed him down into a seat.

"I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting... I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."

The report obtained by ITV said while Menezes was shot eight times, a further three bullets were fired but missed. ITV said the documents came from an official investigation into Menezes' death.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission, who have been charged with investigating the shooting, refused on Tuesday to comment on the veracity of the documents.

"We do not know from which organisation or from whom the documents shown on television this evening have come," the commission said in a statement.

"The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so."

Metropolitan Police said they could not make any comment while the police complaints commission investigation was ongoing.

--A

[ur-bane]

So if this account is correct, and a "surveillance officer" had the suspects arms pinned to his side, where is the cause for the shots to be fired?

It doesn't seem that Menezes was a threat if he was immobilized by this cop.

But we never do get the entire story as it really happened, do we?

[Avatar]

Well, exactly. Not to mention that in this version, the "bulky coat" became a denim jacket, which is not something I tend to think of as "bulky" or "concealing" at all.

It's clear that this was a balls-up of course, and obviously there is nothing that can be done about it now. It's a reflection perhaps of the human tendency to over-react, especially in situations that are rife with fear.

--Avatar

[Cail]

Ever seen a rap video? Denim jackets can be plenty bulky. Eyewitness accounts are also notoriously unreliable. I'll give the cops the benefit of the doubt.

[Avatar]

And maybe that's all it comes down to. Who to give the benefit of the doubt to. And I just don't like giving it to the cops. *shrug*

What about the alleged security camera footage that shows the victim walked normally into the station, bought a paper, entered the train and sat down? Doesn't sound like a fleeing suspect who was blatantly ignoring police orders to halt.

--A

[Avatar]

Another Update:

London cops 'gave false info'

London - Documents leaked to the British media said on Wednesday London police provided false information regarding the fatal shooting of a Brazilian last month in the erroneous belief that he was a terrorist.

A plainclothes police officer killed Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old electrician, on July 22 by pumping several rounds into his head at point-blank range on an Underground station in south London.

Initial reports said Menezes had failed to heed a warning to stop and had vaulted the ticket barriers in his haste to get to the platforms. Police suspected him of being a suicide bomber.

It was also said that he was wearing a heavy jacket, although it was a warm summer's day, suggesting that he was hiding something.

Press reports said on Wednesday that none of this was correct.

Documents leaked to ITN news, a commercial broadcaster, also said Menezes had been restrained before the killing and had not resisted police in any way.

According to the information, based on eyewitness reports, Menezes was wearing a light denim jacket and did not vault the ticket barrier.

He was carrying only one of the free newspapers available at the entrance to Underground stations.

He started to run when he saw a train arriving at Stockwell station and was sitting in the train when he was first restrained and then killed by six or seven shots from a police officer.

Harriet Wistrich, the lawyer retained by Menezes' family, described the reports as "terrifying" and urged a review of police policy.

She said the information put out was "almost entirely wrong and misleading. There was no suggestion that this person was a suspect in any way, that he was running from the police".

Police declined to comment on the investigation being conducted into Menezes' death.

--A

[wayfriend]

I'll give the cops the benefit of the doubt.

Um ... aren't the cops the only ones we're sure that they lied?

[Cail]

Given the last article, it is starting to appear that way.

[sindatur]

Well, it certainly looks bad if these two stories are true.

I had envisioned the guy was ignoring commands to "halt" and ran to get on a stationary train.

It really concerns me that a police officer could miss with three shots at point blank range.

The security cameras should verify which version of the story is true, correct?

[Avatar]

Saw on the news last night that the "leaked documents" mentioned in the article above included the security camera footage.

Also saw a pic taken directly after the shooting, and the guy's jacket was light enough to look like a tracksuit top.

Story said that the footage showed him using his tube pass to enter through the turnstiles, and picking up a paper, before heading toward the platform. It's looking bad...

--A

[Avatar]

More:

Top Cop denies 'shoot to kill'
18/08/2005

London - A senior London police officer in charge of an anti-terror swoop that ended in the mistaken killing of an innocent Brazilian man had ordered her men to take him alive, a newspaper said on Thursday.

Metropolitan Police Commander Cressida Dick instructed officers tailing Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, to detain him before he entered a subway station on July 22, the Daily Mirror tabloid reported.

Despite the command, a firearms team followed the electrician onto a train at Stockwell station, south London, and shot him dead at point blank range after wrongly suspecting him of being a suicide bomber.

The report adds a further twist to a tale of error and misfortune that led to the slaying of de Menezes one day after four would-be bombers tried but failed to repeat the July 7 attacks on subway trains and a bus that killed 56.

Documents, leaked on Tuesday, contradicted initial police and witness statements about the chain of events and triggered calls for Metropolitan Police chief Ian Blair to resign.

"There's no doubt that Commander Dick did not instruct anyone to shoot de Menezes," a senior source at Scotland Yard was quoted as telling the Mirror.

"The gun team were there as a precaution. It looks as if they didn't have time to tell them to grab the man, not shoot him dead," the source said. "The difference between de Menezes living and dying may have been five seconds."

De Menezes' death, which uncovered a controversial shoot to kill policy adopted by the police, came at a particularly high state of alert in London.

Dick, in charge of surveillance, was told that the electrician had left flats that were being watched at Tulse Hill, south London, the tabloid said.

He boarded a bus and had been overheard buying a ticket for Stockwell station, the Mirror said.

"Commander Dick told the surveillance team the man should be detained as soon as possible - and before he got inside the station," it added.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is investigating the shooting, will ask if Dick's orders ever reached the armed squad on the ground and, if they did, whether they were ignored, according to the paper.

--A

[ur-bane]

Isn't it amazing how the police excuses are changing as more of the events are revealed?

The only thing De Menezes did that may look suspicious is run to the train. But if any of you have ever been a little late to the station, I am sure you have run to the train as well.

But the fact remains that they had him restrained, and that there was no need to shoot him. (Unless of course the officer who said he restrained De Menezes was lying as well.)

All I can say is that if you are late for a train in London, don't run to it. Wait for the next one.

It also seems to me that the London police need some better training on how to handle this type of situation.

[Avatar]

Agreed on all points.

--A

[Cail]

This may be an issue with the London police not being familiar with firearms. I dunno. I will always give the police the benefit of the doubt, but this is looking worse and worse.

[Avatar]

Funny that. Maybe it's got to do with the huge police corruption in this country, and possibly partly because of my own position as a "technical" criminal, (the spliff, you know), but I just don't trust the police.

--A

[[Syl]]

I'll give the police the benefit of the doubt, in that, sure, they may be innocent, I don't know. But I don't put blind trust in anything, much less "the man." But if it looks like a duck... I'm not going to say it could be a swallow.