Kevin's Watch

CovenantJr wrote:

Darth Revan wrote:There is no proof of an existence of an omnipotent God, therefore he doesn't exist, that's a simple fact.

There is no concrete proof that you exist either

Seriously, though - absence of proof For does not equate to proof Against.

Of course it does. Don't be absurd. If there is no proof something exists, that works against the argument that it exists.

I agree with Darth in the sense that lack of proof can be counted against the argument for existence, but it's insufficient to prove that argument.

However, doesn't the burden of proof lie on the person who believes the one extra thing?

Oh, and I agree with Cj that there is no proof that any of us exist. The only person whose existence you can prove with reasonable certainty at any given time is your own. (And even then, only with reasonable certainty. )

--A

Av, you had me right up until here:

Avatar wrote:The only person whose existence you can prove with reasonable certainty at any given time is your own.

How do you draw that conclusion?

It's called Solipsism, ur-bane.

Thanks, Syl....I had heard of solipsism before, but never read anything about it or understood it for that matter.

Skimming through that entry, the concept seems to me to be preposterous.

It's absurd. Idiots who think they are demonstrating philosophic interlligent opinion when in fact they are talking utter crap; as though any of you actually believe that.

Well, if it is true (NOT!) then I've go tone hell of an imagination. The best part is that I am then imagining things of which I have no understanding.

All by myself, I sent men to the moon, guided Christ to his fate, empowered Buddah, invented branches of science I never even heard of, temporarily eradicated smallpox, established a worldwide infrastructure, thought up the internet all by myself, persuaded Hitler to invade Poland, demanded the bombing of Pearl Harbor so that the US could enter the war, invented GPS, and invented all of you, among countless other feats!
I am responsible for every life and every death since I have been alive, and nothing ever existed before I was born. So I was wrong about having parents...I invented them too once I "appeared."

Damn, am I great or what?

No, It's me who's great! Because i imagined you imagining that! Everything you think and feel is because of my imagination!

Well, then you must imagine me thanking you.

What am I imagining now?
What about now?
Now.













And now?

I don't know. It's an attractive idea to me, and probably one that sub-consciously, I still tend to cling to.

As I sit here at my desk, how do I know that anything outside of my current frame of perception exists? I can assume, I can think, hope or trust, but I cannot prove it.

This means that everything is a figment of my imagination, that my brain (senses) create for me at the time that I perceive it.

Think about it. Part of it no doubt stems from human selfishness/self-involvement. Do you ever think to yourself that every single person that you see in a day, driving down the highway, walking along a crowded street, every single person is a unique entity with their own lives, hopes, dreams, ambitions and problems?

It's mind-boggling. Utterly mind-boggling. (I told you I have empathy problems. )

--A

It's absurd. Idiots who think they are demonstrating philosophic interlligent opinion when in fact they are talking utter crap; as though any of you actually believe that.

Eh hem.

Syl, my apologies for my jibes. No offense intended. I do not subscribe to that train of thought...but I went about expressing myself in the wrong way.

Peace.

A good post. I didn't know people believed in that stuff. I apologise for any offense I caused there Syl. It is true *mouth twists wryly* I not the most tacit person, I say things the wrong way, I know.

Still, i suppose your belief makes a lot more sense than the Catholic one. Sadly however, I don't believe in what you believe in.

The effects of one person's actions, no matter how minute, change the universe.

Can change *your* universe, the way you percieve the world. It's a devout believe, sadly however, it isn't practical. I consider it a fact that our actions, no matter how large will not effect the universe. No minor human actions will effect the way the universe works. We aren't even able to move any humans beyond our own solar system yet, the galaxy or infinite sized universe wouldn't notice any small humans actions.

It's alright, guys. I know you didn't mean any harm. It's more of a tool I use to deal with the universe than an actual belief, so don't think your insulting my religion or anything. Besides, a lot of the time when someone mentions solipsism, it's synonymous with sophistry and/or pure egotism... probably because it is, in a sense.

That being said, it's always a good thing to watch your step in a religion forum.

NMevertheless, I should be more tact in my opinions. I'm aware of this, I'm often rash, and am sorry for it.

Well, I'm off to bed, I've had 5 hours sleep in the last 36 hours and have needed caffine pills to survive, I'm outta here...

This is what the internet'll do to you...

Be sure to drink some water. Beer, caffeine, and sleep dep will wring you out. Some magnesium will do you good, if you have it.

Avatar wrote:I agree with Darth in the sense that lack of proof can be counted against the argument for existence, but it's insufficient to prove that argument.

Ok, allow me to clarify a little. Absence of proof for argument 1 doesn't constitute proof for argument 2 when argument 2 is itself supported by no proof other than the absence of proof for argument 1.

Did I say clarify? I meant complicate.

Avatar wrote:Oh, and I agree with Cj that there is no proof that any of us exist.

Not only was I inviting comments on Solipsism (:shifty:) but I was also having a thinly veiled jab at Darth for not coming to Elohimfests

Anyway, I like the idea of Solipsism. It may seem somewhat pretentious in a sense, but it appeals to my way of thinking. I think about most things in terms of perception rather than existence, and I often get the feeling most people are far too stupid to conceivably exist, and therefore must have been created by me

Actually, I think it clarified it very well.

And yeah, solipsism is fun. But that's about all it is.

--A

CovenantJr wrote:Did I say clarify? I meant complicate.

Amen (heh)


(The Esmer summons a ceasure:)

Martin wrote:An odd question to ask, to be sure... most of all by an Atheist.

But I want the believers out there to answer this question seriously, where is he?

If there is indeed a God like many claim, why doesn't he ever show himself? (Forgive the masculine pronoun) He did so many times in both the new testement and the old. So... where, and why does he not come?

^^^ Many might few this question as a joke or snide jape at those who believe in God; it is neither, I'm perfectly serious, I wish to know what those people who believe think of this.

Why do we have to assume that whatever created reality has to have an active participation in our lives? It gives us a place to live, to do with whatever we wish, and be solely responsible for what happens here. Are we to act like children, who have to be TOLD, and punished, or like Adults, who have the ability and the will to act like decent human beings, to make the very best of the opportunity we have in such a place and such a short time. I say take a good look around you and see what humans have DONE to each other, NOT what God has ALLOWED!

And indeed, I DO believe, everything around you was brought into being, or Intended, by Whatever is responsible for the world we live in, so you see Its presence in everything you see, Everything is made from It, so must be It.
And look what we've

done with It.....