Star Trek

Post by **Roland of Gilead** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:48 pm

"Just don't dive in the shallow end. You might get hurt."

How true. By my very jealous wife.

Post by **matrixman** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:08 am

I can't say that my interest in Star Trek is at the same passionate level as Tom C's or Roland's, but I did regularly watch reruns of the original series when I was small, and I remain fond of "Classic Trek ." Kirk and Spock: what a dynamic duo! (McCoy in the background: Dammit, Jim, he forgot about me!)

My main passion is (or was) in the feature films. I've mentioned my love of Star Trek I elsewhere; it seems to be the Rodney Dangerfield of ST movies: it gets no respect. Sometimes I feel like one of my missions in life is to defend this movie. Yes, it's slow, but I see it as a beautiful, meaningful kind of slow. It's also usually criticized for being nothing more than a special effects extravaganza, but I disagree. I find the story of V'ger and its search for its own meaning and destiny very profound and moving.

Star Trek II was great as well. I didn't mind those dashing new uniforms at all, but I have read that Gene Roddenberry wasn't pleased about their "militaristic" look--it violated his vision of a peaceful Federation or something. Ricardo Montalban wasn't acting as Khan: he WAS Khan. Simply awesome. About Spock: I was one of those who felt he should have been allowed to die and be done with it. But since they managed to make two really good sequels out of his resurrection, I've forgiven them.

I agree with Tom C that Nicholas Meyer has the magic touch when it comes to Star Trek. Having Kirstie Alley as Saavik helped, too!

Star Trek III was a very well-done film. The tone was just right, I thought: mournful yet resolute. This movie was about loss: Spock's loss, Kirk's loss of his son, the loss of the Enterprise, and the disintegration of the Genesis planet. But it was also about Kirk's determination to bring his friend back to life, Starfleet be damned. I thought the story was handled extraordinarily well, considering this was Leonard Nimoy's directorial debut (wasn't it?).

Star Trek IV was fabulous! It was good to see the rest of the crew in action and contribute to the story, not just have them sit around taking orders from Kirk. The alien probe/humpback whale premise was cool; time travel stories generally make my eyes glaze over, but ST writers are the unquestioned experts when it comes to violating the physical laws of the universe.

Star Trek V...see BUNGLE: 1. (noun) a clumsy or unsuccessful performance or piece of work; mistake. 2. (verb) to spoil (an operation) through clumsiness, incompetence, etc.; botch.

Star Trek VI left me a little cold at first (maybe I was still recovering from ST V), but I've come to appreciate the movie over time. It was so good to see Sulu in command of his own ship. It's been said that the story was an allusion to the end of the Cold War. Maybe I just don't find overtly political stories all that exciting in Star Trek (maybe that's why I found much of ST:TNG to be boring).

Star Trek: Generations didn't do much for me. To my eyes, the franchise was already becoming irrelevant. Having Kirk die such a lame death at the end didn't help to win me over, either.

Star Trek: First Contact was the next film, er, wasn't it? I was losing track of which film was which at this point, and I didn't care. I tried hard to enjoy the movie, but...it's just a small-minded film made by small-minded filmmakers.

Star Trek: Insurrection was a movie I walked into with great hope. Maybe I was hoping for too much: it was another disappointment. Nothing happened in this movie. I gave up. I swore I would never go to another Star Trek movie.

Star Trek: Nemesis...didn't go to it.

ST:TNG -- basically only watched when Q showed up.
DS9 -- never watched it. (Any episodes with Q in it?)
Voyager -- caught some reruns; really liked the ones where Q showed up. Janeway's pretty cool, too.

Enterprise -- not watching it. (Unless Q shows up...)

Um...see a pattern?

Post by **Dragonlily** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:46 am

Up through IV, we agree, Matrixman. After that...

Matrixman wrote:Star Trek V...see BUNGLE: 1. (noun) a clumsy or unsuccessful performance or piece of work; mistake. 2. (verb) to spoil (an operation) through clumsiness, incompetence, etc.; botch.

Star Trek VI left me a little cold at first (maybe I was still recovering from ST V), but I've come to appreciate the movie over time. It was so good to see Sulu in command of his own ship. It's been said that the story was an allusion to the end of the Cold War. Maybe I just don't find overtly political stories all that exciting in Star Trek (maybe that's why I found much of ST:TNG to be boring).

I much prefer STV over VI. Not saying V is any kind of masterpiece, but I much preferred watching a god turn out to be a monster, rather than see Kirk et al dumped on a prison planet for political reasons. Christopher Plummer as a Shakespeare-quoting Klingon was a travesty, the traitor was an utterly boring b---, and I CAN'T STAND people being falsely accused and sacrificed for political reasons.

Edited a bit here, as I remembered better what I was talking about...

Matrixman wrote:Star Trek: Generations didn't do much for me. To my eyes, the franchise was already becoming irrelevant. Having Kirk die such a lame death at the end didn't help to win me over, either.

I thought Malcom McDowell was pretty cool, one of my favorite ST villains.

Matrixman wrote:Star Trek: First Contact was the next film, er, wasn't it? I was losing track of which film was which at this point, and I didn't care. I tried hard to enjoy the movie, but...it's just a small-minded film
made by small-minded filmmakers.

The delight was James Cromwell as Cochran. It was the first time I realized he is a chameleon actor.

What number was the oine with the hive queen Borg? This one just sort of fell off my radar. Some people like the Borg -- I don't really see it myself.

Matrixman wrote:Star Trek: Insurrection was a movie I walked into with great hope. Maybe I was hoping for too much: it was another disappointment. Nothing happened in this movie. I gave up. I swore I would never go to another Star Trek movie.

This one delighted me. I'm sure that "cute and funny" isn't what they were aiming at, but those are the parts that stuck most in my mind. "I was designed to serve as a flotation device in case of a water landing." Brent Spiner got to strut his stuff in this one -- lots of variety.

Matrixman wrote:ST:TNG -- basically only watched when Q showed up.

A season of STNG costs three times a season of any normal series on DVD, but I intend to have them all in the end. I love the look, the characters, the imagination, and the idealism.

There, is that enough to discuss?

Post by **matrixman** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:16 am

Hey, I'm still here. The Trekkers haven't boiled me alive.

I can't venture too much of an opinion on all the new generation series, since I hardly watched them, and I'm not about to start now. I do agree with the idea of Star Trek: it's an optimistic vision of humanity's future, and that's always good to have.

Okay, I checked. First Contact is, indeed, the 8th Trek movie. (I'm sure you'll sleep better now.) Thanks for your gracious response, Joy.

Post by **Loredoctor** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:32 am

I want to like Star Trek, but time and again the series turns me off it! There are some fabulous episodes, but it routinely presents trashy sci-fi. For instance, when the Borg first turn up, I was enthralled; they were perhaps one of the best creations in sci-fi television - truly a terrifying enemy. THEN they ruin the Borg in later stories. They seem stupid (as in intellectually); the inclusion of the Borg queen was just sad.
I love the design of the show - the Cardassians are superb, as are the many ships of the series. But what annoys me about ST is that 99% of the aliens are just humanoids with a bump on the forehead. I realise this is because of budget constraints, but every writer tries to add a new alien thus causing this. They should keep the aliens to a minimum, that way they don't repeat cultures (ANOTHER shapechanging or warrior race) or have sooo many human-looking aliens.
I like the films - the first one, Khan, III & 4 are all good. I agree with Joy in regards to Generations - Mcdowell makes a great villain. Pity the TNG crew suck. Well, Picard is good.
I grew up watching the original series. What ST has lost now is the passion and the having fun with itself. It takes itself too serious, which is a shame.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 12:39 pm

Wow. I'm not sure where to begin except to say that my opinions on all of the aforementioned subjects have been WELL documented in other threads. (See Star Trek Worst to first) Matrixdude, I generally agree with you but we have differing opinions on a lot of Star Trek. The great thing is that I don't really think you are wrong about anything, I see your point a view and I share it in an odd way, but I also have my own perspective. The thing I am most gratified with is that this thread is still alive.

Post by **matrixman** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:56 am

Still hoping for that Star Trek forum, TomC?

Post by **Dragonlily** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:05 am

Sounds like a good idea.

Post by **Roland of Gilead** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:28 pm

I would rank them as follows:

Star Trek IV - as I said elsewhere, the finest sf movie ever, in my opinion.

Star Trek II - agree, Montalban IS Khan, and to this day, I still quote his great lines to annoy my science fiction hating wife.

Star Trek VIII - I think this is the best of the Next Generation movies - Picard and Data shine in it, and we get some more of Picard's obsession with the Borg, after assimiliation to become Locutus. (the best Next Gen tv episode).

Star Trek III - great movie, marred only by the fact that Spock pretty much is not in it.

Star Trek I - I, too, don't think this is the train wreck that most fans do. And Persis Khambatta's legs are spectcular.

Star Trek VII - I thought the melding of the two series was done fairly well.

Star Trek V - this is the one I'm in the minority on. Not great, but I liked a lot of the scenes, including the infamous campfire sing-along.

Star Trek IX - again, I liked parts of this movie.

Star Trek VI - original cast just going through the motions. Looked old and tired.

Star Trek X - Next Gen cast just going through the motions. Looked old and tired.

Single favorite tv episode - City on the Edge of Forever. Even if Harlan Ellison insists that they butchered his script.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:20 pm

delete me

Post by **aTOMiC** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:23 pm

Matrixman wrote:Still hoping for that Star Trek forum, TomC?

YES!

Roland of Gilead wrote: Single favorite tv episode - City on the Edge of Forever. Even if Harlan Ellison insists that they butchered his script.

I can't agree more with this. "Let's get the hell out of here."
Man that was powerful.
If Ellison felt the script was butchered, I have to wonder if it was justified.
Maybe it could have been bettter but I can't imagine it.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:52 pm

I thought we weren't posting twice in a row, Tom.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:59 pm

My boo boo. I've edited the useless one but I apparently don't have delete permission.

Post by **Roland of Gilead** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:16 pm

Tom, there is a book floating around out there that has Ellison's unedited script, for comparison. I've never read it yet. I did read a review, though, that echoed your thoughts. That the television version was better than his original and the changes were a good thing.

Post by **Old Darth** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:19 pm

I have read the Ellison version and believe it is superior to the final version.

It's a darker script with more realistic behaviour for the characters especially Kirk at the moment where Edith's death is preventable.

The script contains ideas on a scale much larger than anything Star Trek the TV series could ever afford.

I think the main objections of the Ellison script centered on having Enterprise crew members engaging in criminal activity. Of course, in later series and movies this type of behaviour was no longer considered an issue.

I like Ellison's script mainly for Kirk's behaviour at the moment of Edith's impending death.

I won't go into details as others may find the script - don't want to spoil it. I'll try to find the book at home and post the title - believe it was a collection of SF teleplays.

Post by **Old Darth** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:28 pm

BTW - has anyone picked up the recent Director's cut of the ST:TMP? It really improves upon the original version - which was rushed to theaters.

Amazing what a few edits can do - ie the whole Enterprise travelling over V'Ger is no longer an endurance test.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:07 am

I'm with Ur-Vile on the Borg. They were literally terrifying in the beginning. Slicing up the entirely helpless Enterprise was something else! (And Q's "If you can't stand a bloody nose, then go back to Earth." or whatever, was just plain rude!)

But then Picard and Janeway started beating them up every other episode. Wasn't there an episode somewhere where a little kid threw some bubble gum out the air-lock, and it jammed one of the cubes' self-destruct device on?

And yeah, the Queen annoyed the heck out of me. What happened to the Collective? The utter lack of individuality is what made them so cool and horrifying in the first place! The fact that there was nobody to appeal, or even beg, to was frustrating and creepy.

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:35 am

The final hammer occurred during the episode where the Borg had an uprising and drones left the collective. So much for their power and invicibility.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:19 pm

Yes, the classic "bad guy" problem; you want them to seem invincible, so people will watch, but they also have to have a fatal flaw for the good guy to exploit. Unfortunately, the writers just kept coming up with fatal flaws to exploit, and finally I got used to the Borg, and bored with them.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Star Trek