The Reason Berek and Covenant are one in the same...

[High Lord Tolkien]

Malik, why are you assuming that Linden travelling back in time would make any CHANGES at all.

Maybe there are times when she has to go back because her actions are responsible for the "original" timeline.

If something has already happened (because its the "original timeline"), then why would she HAVE to go back and make it happen? It's already happened, so why worry about it? Can she at this point choose not to go back? Let's say she does make that choice. If the original timeline is dependent upon her going back, and she chooses not to go back, then how is the original timeline explained? According to your example, she CAN'T choose to not go back. If the original timeline depends her future choice, then she isn't free to choose otherwise. That violates her freewill.

Oh yeah?
Well.................................................
Screw you!!!
And your free will too!!!



No, SRD said that he wasn't going heavy on the science with timetravel stuff.
And remember this is *magic* not science!
You can do more stuff with magic and the Arch will even "heal" your mistakes.

[Relayer]

How about:

Covenant & Linden are the 'King and Queen' of yore, based in Doriendor Corishev.

Jeremiah, cured of his disabilities in the land (except his halfhand) becomes Linden's fiercely loyal champion. Somehow, he becomes known as 'Berek'.

Covenant, because he is merging with Lord Foul, starts behaving badly (the 'shadow across the King's heart', or however the tale was told). Linden and Jeremiah are forced to raise armies to oppose his.

'Berek' - Jeremiah - knows of the white gold because of his association with TC and Linden.

Berek / Jeremiah has already designed Revelstone in lego. He passes the design onto his son Damelon, who suggests it to the Giants.

... except that if Jeremiah is already half-handed, then how does Berek lose it in the war? And Berek didn't know about the Earthpower when he fled to Mt. Thunder (until it then spoke to him). If it were Jeremiah, assuredly TC or Linden would have told him about Earthpower...

This thread is really fun. But, I think it simply comes down to one thing which we've already discussed: at no time when Thomas Covenant sees either Berek (his spectre) or a representation of him (tapestry, etc) does he think "Damn, that dude looks just like ME!!"

[ur-monkey]

I'm gonna go with the rather lame excuse that the Berek story has lost some of it's historical accuracy in the 4000-odd yrs between the events and Atiaran's story.

Or maybe some kind of uber-hurtloam made his fingers grow back, only to get chopped off again by TC's bullyboys .

Let's face it, I really don't want to make an accurate guess!

[Buckarama]

While I think it would make a good story if Linden caused Kevin's Dirt like you've mentioned, this idea hasn't been confirmed, has it? It's just your theory, right?

It is nothing but my theory, yes.

Linden could have easily chosen to not go back after the Staff. She has freewill. To assert otherwise would violate one of SRD's main points of all three Chronicles: the importance of free will and the consequences of one's choices. Events that haven't happened yet cannot impose causation upon present (or past) events. This is the entire danger of breaking the Arch of Time, i.e. that time will become so disrupted that causation and linear sequence of events no longer follow in meaningful order. If Linden's actions have already affected the Land even before she enters the Land, then time is already so messed up that the Arch should be broken. If SRD is going the way you've suggested, then he's made a grave mistake.

Your confusing the issue here I think, not that's not confusing anyway. She already made her choice, she just did it in the future.

Anyway, back to your argument. Are you saying that if time travel gets invented, we couldn't go back and save Lincoln? What would stop us? Why can we alter how much change is in his pocket, but not him getting killed? What difference does human knowledge (lots of people knowing about it) have upon large-scale events in the universe? They don't know he was killed yet. I understand that this would cause a multitude of changes throughout time, altering history in a major way. It would be foolish to do, but not impossible. There would be absolutely nothing stopping us.

I'm saying that it's already happened. That means, if there was any tampering from the future due to time travel, our past is just how it turned out. If they go back a hundred times and try to save him, it ends the same because that's the way it happened. Maybe I'm not expressing myself correctly. If he died and there was tampering from the future, that means his death happened in a short exisitance of time, and tampering from the future would be during that small linear stretch. From our perspective it's already happened and how many future events took place in 1863 they all happened in our past to conclude to the exact serise of events that we know. Just because 63 people from different areas of the future go back to his death, they all enter 1863 at or around the same time. So those events have already happened because of someone's free choice from the future. (NOW my head hurts )

[Nom vs. Vain]

Just a small interjection... Jermiah has the wrong fingers cleft... he lost his index and middle fingers, and even then I believe it was only a portion of his middle finger... so if jermiah for some reason does become berek then he must re-grow his fingers, and then have them cleved again. Also Roger can be the King, often mothers are still reffered to as queen even if its there son who has become King, therefore Joan could be the queen, Roger the Raver could build an army and then Covenant who has regrown his hand gets it cleved in battle with his son, Covenant does not despair like the rest of the queens army because he does not believe!

[Chuchichastli]

Does it actually specify which fingers Berek himself had lost, or even in which hand? If not it is hardly necessary for these theories that he needs to be maimed in the same way as Covenant...

[Zarathustra]

Another pointless point: would any of us recognize ourselves at a much greater age? I forgot how old Berek was when he died (is it ever said?), but it's not impossible that TC wouldn't recognize his own ghost if that ghost looked decades older than he's used to seeing. Heck, maybe he put on a lot of weight in his old age, too. I'm just saying, the recognition factor isn't what makes it impossible. That could be explained away. Not so with the "laws of causation."

Buckorama, I see what you're saying, and you're doing a good job of explaining it--I just disagree. What you're saying is indistinguishable from saying time travel cannot change the past, even when it changes the past! If Lincoln only dies because someone from the future made it happen (let's say, nudged him into the path of the bullet), then there is absolutely no danger in time travel. Ditto for the Chronicles: the danger of the Falls is zero. Falls can't corrupt Time itself, and there's absolutely no danger of the Arch being broken. The entire tension of the Last Chronicles evaporates in a case of false expectations of the readers. Linden can use the white gold to jump back and forth all she wants with absolutely no consequences.

[Nom vs. Vain]

No consequenses? I think you may be wrong there, I do remember reading that the arch of time was being affected negatively by the falls.

[Buckarama]

The Timeline is bound to our perception, which where time is concerned, is very limited. To our perceptions, the past will not change. The past has always been the past. You can't change time unless you stand outside of it's effect. You can't go back and kill your grandfather when he was a child, the event just can't happen.
Linden went back and took the Staff of Law. Took it back to her time, this we already know. We also know that Kevin's Dirt could never be unless the staff of law is gone. This was the past form Linden perpective. She didn't change the past, she made it what it already was.


And I double dog dare you to prove me wrong!

I'm having a great time with this! Lets keep it going!

[High Lord Tolkien]

We also know that Kevin's Dirt could never be unless the staff of law is gone.

We do?

What book do you have?

[Buckarama]

Hardback, Runes of the Earth

Page 92 Linden first look at Kevin’s Dirt

….And it was wrong. Her eyes and nose, the nerves of her face, even her tongue, were certain of that: the shrilling of her health-sense permitted no doubt. It was as vile as the Sunbane, and as pervasive, lying like cerements over slain flesh as though the vital beauty, the very Law, which she had once given her utmost to preserve had been arrayed for burial. …..

Page 109 hints at it again when Anele says;

“The Fault is mine. All this’ – he gestured wildly about him- “Kevin’s Dirt and the ceasures, the Masters and the dread fire of the skurj. All the Land’s pain. The fault is mine.”

Also on page 109

Such evils as Kevin’s Dirt and caesuras should not have been able to exist in the presence of the Staff of Law. Had her efforts for the Land accomplished nothing?

[spacemonkey]

Hardback, Runes of the Earth

Page 92 Linden first look at Kevin’s Dirt

….And it was wrong. Her eyes and nose, the nerves of her face, even her tongue, were certain of that: the shrilling of her health-sense permitted no doubt. It was as vile as the Sunbane, and as pervasive, lying like cerements over slain flesh as though the vital beauty, the very Law, which she had once given her utmost to preserve had been arrayed for burial. …..

Page 109 hints at it again when Anele says;

“The Fault is mine. All this’ – he gestured wildly about him- “Kevin’s Dirt and the ceasures, the Masters and the dread fire of the skurj. All the Land’s pain. The fault is mine.”

Also on page 109

Such evils as Kevin’s Dirt and caesuras should not have been able to exist in the presence of the Staff of Law. Had her efforts for the Land accomplished nothing?

Agreed,I'm in the same spot in ROTE, The whole point of this thread is really good for the ongoing debate but, I have a question for you guys.....If TC is related to Berek then HOW IN GODS GREEN EARTH DID TC GET HERE??? Remember,the old man(The Creator) CHOSE TC for the task,He did not say TC had to RETURN to the Land.........
In LFB, There was no mention in ANY of the chrons that TC belonged there.TC was even offered the opportunity to stay in the Land and he refused it......TC CANNOT be related to Berek,ONLY a semblence......

[High Lord Tolkien]

Thanks for the quotes!!
But I still don't see it.
Much too vague too me.


Anele is, well, a little off on things.

And Linden is still learning what's going on within the quotes you provided with her.

And we don't even know what Kevin's Dirt is exactly.

Still, maybe you're right.

[Buckarama]

Well, most things in life are opinon and your belief in them.

[spacemonkey]

Well, most things in life are opinon and your belief in them.

Now,there's the truth!! It all depends on your point of view!!!!

[Zarathustra]

No consequenses? I think you may be wrong there, I do remember reading that the arch of time was being affected negatively by the falls.

Oh, I agree entirely. I wasn't saying that I believe there's no consequences to time travel. I was saying that IF Buckarama's theory is true [i.e. that time travel can't make any changes to your past] THEN there's no consequences to time travel, because one's actions will simply be "the way it's always been."

Buck, this quote indicates it's Anele's fault, not Linden's:

“The Fault is mine. All this’ – he gestured wildly about him- “Kevin’s Dirt and the ceasures, the Masters and the dread fire of the skurj. All the Land’s pain. The fault is mine.”

But maybe Anele is wrong. Then again, maybe Linden is wrong, too. After all, when Drool was weilding the Staff, all sorts of "wrong" stuff happened. Kevin's Dirt seems pretty benign compared to the Sunbane--which is a real, known example of what happens when the Staff is missing. If Kevin's Dirt was caused by the Staff missing, I think that would be too repetitive, too much like the 2nd Chrons. I think something else is going on.

The Timeline is bound to our perception, which where time is concerned, is very limited. To our perceptions, the past will not change. The past has always been the past.
You can't change time unless you stand outside of it's effect.

That was my whole point of saying that TC and Linden come from a place outside the Land. I agree with you that within a timeline, it would be impossible to know if your past had been tampered with, because even after it has been altered, it would still have been your past all along. To the people within the Land, this would hold true. However, because TC's "real" world is unaffected by changes to the past in the Land, the Land's past isn't constrained by his perception of it. He could visit it once--and experience one past--and then visit it again and experience a different past, notice changes, etc., as long as his first visit was before the caesures ever occurred, and his second visit was after they occurred. That's why I insist that his first time to the Land represented a view of things before the caesure's effects, and thus Berek had to be his own, separate person.

So, let me gather all my arguments together. There's the "outside of the Land" perspective, as I've just stated above, which allows TC or Linden to notice alterations to the timeline that people within the Land can't notice themselves. There's the "necessity of freewill" argument, which means Linden can't be forced by the past to make a decision in the future. There's the "no consequences due to timetravel" problem, which eliminates the possibility that changes to the past have no significant effect (i.e., "you can't save Lincoln's life" theory)--otherwise, there's no danger to the Arch of Time.

I think all these together make it clear that: a) there IS a danger to the Arch via time travel, and that danger is the potential to significantly alter the past, b) Linden MUST have freewill, which means that she can choose not to go back and be the cause of events in the so-called "original timeline," (thus the original timeline can't be dependent upon her choices) and c) TC DID experience an unaltered timeline that is not constrained by his perception because his own personal past isn't dependent upon the Land's past.

Therefore, Berek is not Thomas Covenant. Q.E.D.

[Buckarama]

No consequenses? I think you may be wrong there, I do remember reading that the arch of time was being affected negatively by the falls.

Oh, I agree entirely. I wasn't saying that I believe there's no consequences to time travel. I was saying that IF Buckarama's theory is true [i.e. that time travel can't make any changes to your past] THEN there's no consequences to time travel, because one's actions will simply be "the way it's always been."

Buck, this quote indicates it's Anele's fault, not Linden's:

This quote is to indicate that Anele has lost the Staff of Law and there this has allowed that Kevin’s Dirt and the Ceasures are a direct result of his loss. He’s lost his birth right, the Staff of Law.

“The Fault is mine. All this’ – he gestured wildly about him- “Kevin’s Dirt and the ceasures, the Masters and the dread fire of the skurj. All the Land’s pain. The fault is mine.”

But maybe Anele is wrong. Then again, maybe Linden is wrong, too. After all, when Drool was weilding the Staff, all sorts of "wrong" stuff happened. Kevin's Dirt seems pretty benign compared to the Sunbane--which is a real, known example of what happens when the Staff is missing. If Kevin's Dirt was caused by the Staff missing, I think that would be too repetitive, too much like the 2nd Chrons. I think something else is going on.

At this particular time, Anele is on the rock remains of Kevin’s watch and is in one of his lucid moments.

The Timeline is bound to our perception, which where time is concerned, is very limited. To our perceptions, the past will not change. The past has always been the past.
You can't change time unless you stand outside of it's effect.

That was my whole point of saying that TC and Linden come from a place outside the Land. I agree with you that within a timeline, it would be impossible to know if your past had been tampered with, because even after it has been altered, it would still have been your past all along. To the people within the Land, this would hold true. However, because TC's "real" world is unaffected by changes to the past in the Land, the Land's past isn't constrained by his perception of it. He could visit it once--and experience one past--and then visit it again and experience a different past, notice changes, etc., as long as his first visit was before the caesures ever occurred, and his second visit was after they occurred.

I disagree with you here. At no ‘time’ is Linden or TC outside of time unless the void travel from our world to the land is considered such. Time moves differently from here to there, but it is still time progression. The land is a different world, but the reality is still there. Linden, TC and Foul can effect each world with their free choice. Linden and TC can come to the land, and Foul can reach out in to TC and linden’s world, (the fire that burnt Jeremiah’s hand and his obvious influence on Joan and Roger.) Their perceptions make this not two realities, but one. What effects one world has repercussions in the other. To say otherwise would not be looking at the whole.

That's why I insist that his first time to the Land represented a view of things before the caesure's effects, and thus Berek had to be his own, separate person.

I don’t have the quote for this, but doesn’t SRD in the GI state that just because you didn’t see the ceasures doesn’t mean weren’t always there? I could be mistaken about this. Even if not, ceasures still need a place in time to do their work (whatever that is) and if they start in one point they are always going to end up in another point. And I agree about the Berek thing, I’m just spouting time travel. 

So, let me gather all my arguments together. There's the "outside of the Land" perspective, as I've just stated above, which allows TC or Linden to notice alterations to the timeline that people within the Land can't notice themselves. There's the "necessity of freewill" argument, which means Linden can't be forced by the past to make a decision in the future.

And here’s my point, she can’t be forced because it’s already happened. She wasn’t forced by the past, her free will decision was just made in the future and beyond our perception.

There's the "no consequences due to timetravel" problem, which eliminates the possibility that changes to the past have no significant effect (i.e., "you can't save Lincoln's life" theory)--otherwise, there's no danger to the Arch of Time.

Now I have never said that the Arch of Time is all free and willy nilly to do what ever it wants. The Arch of Time is a container for time. Outside of Time as it were. Now, wouldn’t this mean that all assaults on it are happening at once? Time is just a place to be so events don’t happen all at once. This means that the Arch of Time has already survived all assaults. (That will make your head spin) 

I think all these together make it clear that: a) there IS a danger to the Arch via time travel, and that danger is the potential to significantly alter the past,

Agreed, there is a danger to the Arch of Time.

b) Linden MUST have freewill, which means that she can choose not to go back and be the cause of events in the so-called "original timeline," (thus the original timeline can't be dependent upon her choices)

Linden does have freewill, there is no “Original Timeline” there is just the timeline. Her future choices effect the past.

and c) TC DID experience an unaltered timeline that is not constrained by his perception because his own personal past isn't dependent upon the Land's past.

Ah now I disagree with you here also, TC is affected by the lands past and future. Just like he is affected by his worlds past (He doesn’t really have a future there anymore as far as I can figure) 

Therefore, Berek is not Thomas Covenant. Q.E.D.

Agreed, TC is not Berek, but only because he has never been Berek

All these quotes are making my head spin!

[Tulizar]

And I hope you realize that this is a circular argument

There seem to be two schools of time travel thought. Oversimplified, one says time travel will not alter history, the other argues time travel can alter history. As I've stated in other forums, I'm not well versed on entropy and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, so don't have much to add other than my opinion.

Why can't I travel back and save Lincoln's life? Because Lincoln's assassination and every subsequent event since has become a part of my history.
If I go back and save his life, will history unfold in a different manner, irrevocably altering the series of events that would ultimately allow me to travel back to save his life? Or will travelling back in time to save his life simply reveal an alternate historical scheme up to the point at which I travel back in time? Which one is etched in stone? The point where I jump back in time, or history itself?

I personally prefer the notion that history can't be altered. This is based on neither scientific fundamentals nor philosophical arguments. It mostly has to do with sci-fi stories and movies. The best time travel stories don't rely on the gimmick of altering the past. I don't have a problem with sci fi time travel as long as it is subtle or rationally explained. Going back in time to alter things is simply too convenient. It allows writers an easy way out of a jam or permits an anything goes attitude. Let's go back and grab some Giants and old Lords and so we can set things right!! It just seems lame.
I know travelling back in time to alter history can be credibly argued (as Malik has proven); unfortunately time travel in most sci-fi is not so credibly written.


I also wonder about the Arch of Time. And I think I get the gist of Malik's argument about two different modes of time. I agree with this. I think The Land and our reality are two distinct planes without any time connection. I don't think Foul is actually capable of entering our reality, although he can influence people to do his bidding here.
I know the Land's time line works in a linear fashion, but it also is controlled by an Arch that with a neurotic white gold leper as its keystone. How this will affect time travel is purely up to SRD, but anything is possible--including altering history.
SRD is obviously an excellent writer who will undoubtedly handle time travel with the utmost care. I'm curious to see how the whole time travel thing unfolds in the rest of the series.

[spacemonkey]

OK, Let's clear up something here,time travel IS possible,however,the OBSERVED time changes The thoery that covers this particular area is string theory within quantum mechanics,special relativity.You can in fact(mathematically) go back and kill your grandfather BUT you will still exist in THAT particular string timeline.You would have a devil of a time returning to your proper string as the strings are infinite,the only thing that gets me about the AOT is that it seems to act as a "knot" where all the strings converge to one point.This is,in this application,a paradox,something that cannot take place.But,SRD has stated to me personally through the GI that the stories themselves are paradoxes within themselves,so there stands a possibility that the AOT may act in this function.But,when TC finally understands the white gold's power and can willfully use it,why did he not see this himself?The ultimate power would have the ultimate reach,in WGW TC was finally sick of Foul and wanted his final demise,not to "patch it up" so to speak.Why then did TC not see this and sever the knot at the AOT?Kill Foul and be on his merry way.I personally think SRD has a rather complex story to wrap up,and that we will all be rather surprised.Well, that's my worth.............

[Fist and Faith]

Why do you think Covenant understood all of that so completely? He understood that he could use wild magic to do most anything he could think of. That doesn't mean he understands all the intricacies and implications of time and the AoT, and he didn't think of trying what you're suggesting.