Kevin's Watch

Tell you what LM, when you're ready to have a reasonable discussion about this, PM me. You want to play childish semantic games, you don't need me for that.

That's what I thought.

Dromond wrote:Tell me the difference of praying for me alive and dead, when your experience tells you I wouldn't appreciate either.

I had actually mentioned the difference between me saying a prayer for someone at night, versus a group of people conducting a ceremony to retroactively baptize someone who is dead into a faith that they did not express a desire in life to become a part of.

The difference to me is crystal clear, but I will draw it out: one is a wishful prayer or prayerful wish, depending on how much stock you put in prayer. The other is a formal and posthumous induction of someoneinto a faith they had no part of in life. It is NOT just a difference of scale. Totally different things in my mind.

I'm not talking about whether you want to mentioned by me in my prayers. If I'm praying them, they're *my* prayers - and if I am praying for your instant death, your gradual conversion, or that you win the lottery tomorrow, well that's between my conscience and God, isn't it? Whether or not you are told of my prayers is inconsequential to the prayer itself. Do you feel your ears burning or something?

It is 100% your perception and your choice to take it as a sweet nothing, or as a heartfelt wish that (darn it) can't come true because you just don't care for my religion, or an arrogant act by someone who is lording their supposedly superior religion over you. So see it how you will.

Believe me, I know there are plenty of people out there that do believe you and I are going straight to Hell if we don't buy Jesus Brand X. These people are fervently praying their eyes out for our instant and irrevocable conversion. Some people knock door to door trying to find converts. Some people learn foreign languages and travel to distant lands to bring Jesus and food to people who have nothing. Some people have potluck dinners and invite nonmembers for some fellowship, hoping to win them over. Some people pray quietly for the conversion of others. Some people beat their breasts and wail publicly for the soon-to-be-damned souls of the nonbelievers. And some people could care less.

Would it really kill you to find out why the person who is praying for you is praying for you? Try to take it the way it was meant. Or don't. Either way, it's still your choice.

And hey, the offense you all tell us you're taking about a prayer that was made on your behalf just gives us arrogant people more of a chance to talk more about our religion - i.e., more chances to convert you

[Personally, I find hard-sell evangelizing very distasteful, because it's always the fundies that are doing it, and they always seem like they are working from a sales script, just like door-2-door vacuum cleaner salesmen. I think it cheapens the product to sell it that way, because to me it smacks of desperation.]

dw

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:[Personally, I find hard-sell evangelizing very distasteful, because it's always the fundies that are doing it, and they always seem like they are working from a sales script, just like door-2-door vacuum cleaner salesmen. I think it cheapens the product to sell it that way, because to me it smacks of desperation.]

Absolutely. Attraction rather than promotion.

Cail wrote:If you told me that my praying for you was offending you, I'd stop telling you about it.

Bingo. So pray for the Jews all you want...just don't tell them about it. If they don't know, they can't be offended.

(I'm firmly of the belief that what you don't know won't hurt you. It might be dishonest Esmer, but that's as far as I'll go. Of course, I don't have that problem with negative energy either. )

Actually LuciMay, I responded to DW's post. And definitely agree iwth this:

DW wrote:The Jews felt the need to publicly disapprove of the reassertion of the Latin mass, because the Catholics felt the need to make that reassertion public.

And of course, I believe in our right to do what we want as long as it doesn't harm others quantifiably. Esmer, I'd check to make sure you were using a sufficient calibre to get the job done. It's your life, you can do whatever you want with it.

--A

Lord Mhoram wrote:
edit: And you're all getting hung up on the idea that the prayers themselves are arrogant. Not so. It has nothing to do with the action, nor even the intent, but rather, the sentiment: I am praying for you because your faith is deficient. I can call it "sharing," I can say that all religions are fundamentally the same, but all of this is meaningless in the face of the underlying message that salvation can be achieved, at least ideally, in one way. That one way happens to not be yours, so I will pray for your soul. That is arrogance.

Its a catch 22. If I truly believe that my religion is correct and I have total faith in that religion and if that religion says that you believe this way or you cant go to heaven, then by default all other religions that dont believe that way are deficient in the means to get to heaven. However I dont see that in itself as arrogance. The person may express it arrogantly and might be arrogant in his/her belief...but then they might not. It would depend on whether what they do meets the definition of arrogance. It could...but it also could not. You would have to be able to see into the heart of the person doing the praying to know if they were doing it out of a feeling of self importance or superiority or whether it was just out of a generosity of spirit to share 'salvation'.

Arrogance -
1. overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors
2. offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride

Arrogant -
Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.

I don't know who would be offended about what would happen to their body after their death. You're dead, you wouldn't know. I think people look for reasons to be offended, now we're taking it to places where we're not even alive yet we're offended.

I heard a good message last night, which I couldn't help but think about this topic. He was talking about Ephesians 2, v1-3

AND you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

A good way to think of 'walked according to the course of this world', is to imagine a current, and you're just swept along in it. You have no control. This current is according to the prince of the power of the air (Satan). Satan has created this current, and those who are dead are caught in this current. They may think they are in control, but are being swept along (you might say enslaved) by this current. Like the alcoholic, who thinks he's in control until he decides to try to control his addiction, then finds how strong the current is.

As a Christian, it is painful to see others caught in this current. To see the enslavement. Would I mention something to the alcoholic? Would I listen to him when he says "get lost"? If so, that's not very loving. He's harming himself, possibly others. But even if only himself, if I care, I won't stop b/c he asks me too, whether he considers it arrogant or not.

But then, verse 4 begins:

But God

What a great 'But.' By His mercy He pulls us out of the current. The pastor last night likened it to a dog on a boat, going against the current, but the dog's not doing anything, just sittin there w/its tongue hanging out.

Cybrweez wrote:I don't know who would be offended about what would happen to their body after their death. You're dead, you wouldn't know. I think people look for reasons to be offended, now we're taking it to places where we're not even alive yet we're offended.

I don't buy that. Is necrophilia OK?

I'm Catholic, I want a Catholic funeral, and I've made arrangements for that to happen. Whether or not I'll know if that happens is hardly the point, it's what I want, and it does no harm to anyone else.

i'm having a viking funeral! you're all invited to shoot burning arrows at me!!!
(you think i'm kidding but i'm NOT)


oh yeah...about this...

Dromond wrote:And Lucimay, your saying that the Jews have no right to be critical of what the Catholics say about them behind closed doors ignores 1000+ years of anti-Semitism, what they did say about them, in secret and out in the open, and all the agony bestowed upon many of their race by this same group.

dude...you're totally reaching there. you know exactly what i was saying.
you're twisting my words to suit your argument because you're offended that i said what goes on in ANYBODY'S church behind the closed doors of that church isn't anybody else's business.
NOW...

hang on...i have to go back and check something before i continue...brb.

ok...back.

so it looks to me like the Anti-Defamation League brought this particular part of the revived mass to public attention.
doesn't look like the pope announced that all catholics were now to start praying for the lost souls of all jews.

once again...this looks to be a POLITICAL move. it stinks to high heaven (whatever heaven you believe in) of politics.
somebody's being a bit of a WATCH DOG, don't you think????? hmmmm?
watch dogs are only good if they can tell the difference between the good mail man and the burgler.

and just LOOK at the fall out on the pages of this thread. look how the whole issue POLARIZED us.
i just don't think THAT is a good thing. not at all i don't.
over something as GOOD as prayer.

Lucimay wrote:i'm having a viking funeral! you're all invited to shoot burning arrows at me!!!
(you think i'm kidding but i'm NOT)

I would love to shoot burning arrows at you! Can I practice now?

no. not till i'm dead.

Lucimay wrote:no. not till i'm dead.

Uh, how long should we wait?

Also, who's the slave wench to be, uh, 'snackrificed' at your funeral?

heh. i'm disallowing you to SNACKRIFICE anybody...

but if you go against my wishes and snackrifice somebody...

can you make it a dude instead of a wench pretty please???

Lucimay wrote:heh. i'm disallowing you to SNACKRIFICE anybody...

but if you go against my wishes and snackrifice somebody...

can you make it a dude instead of a wench pretty please???

Uh... I don't know if I could bring myself to kill David Bowie... I mean, sex him up, yes, but... kill?

Well, he is getting old... if you don't die soon, he may die of cardiac arrest during the sexing.

Religion always polarises people Lucimay.

I agree with cybrweez on this one: If you think you have the one true faith that will bring redemption only to those who have it, it is your duty (if you like people in general) to pray/work for the conversion of others.

As a consequence of these two sentences I am a preaching atheism. I can't really pray for the conversion of others

Prebe,

If you think you have the one true faith that will bring redemption only to those who have it, it is your duty (if you like people in general) to pray/work for the conversion of others.

I actually completely agree with that. Doesn't make it right, or even morally justifiable. The "one faith" ideology is an inherent flaw of religiosity in general, as far as I can see. If anyone is aware of a religion that says that all faiths are capable of leading to salvation, and that conversion is therefore completely unnecessary, I would be very interested in seeing that.

Cail, I could really care less what happens to my body when I'm dead. Sure, I have preferences, but if my preferences are not met, I won't be upset about it. The funeral has no bearing on the afterlife, and like I said, why would I even bother to think about how offended I would be, when I would never know.

Lord Mhoram wrote:I actually completely agree with that. Doesn't make it right, or even morally justifiable. The "one faith" ideology is an inherent flaw of religiosity in general, as far as I can see. If anyone is aware of a religion that says that all faiths are capable of leading to salvation, and that conversion is therefore completely unnecessary, I would be very interested in seeing that.

LM, morally justifiable by whom?

And this inherent flaw, are you saying it should be your way instead, that there is no "one faith?" Sounds like an inherent flaw.

I believe it's morally unjustifiable. That's my opinion. There is no moral absolute there. And nice try, but the inherent flaw I was talking about is the idea that only one faith is absolute. I believe all faiths have something to offer and it is illogical to me that only one offers salvation.

Emo Leper... our valiant attempts to hijack this thread were in vain.