Kevin's Watch

jonnyredleader wrote:All very good ideas and effective in the short term but the lords already had a precedent with Kevin. He'd caused big problems for foul for thousands of years and then foul pops up again and puts the land at the brink again. Covenant destroys the illearth stone then a few thousand years later the land is in a worse state without fouls ability to use that power.
Foul tried many schemes to destroy the world before he even came to the land, ravers are small fry however poisonous they are. Even dead Elena controlled them easily and they certainly weren't 100% loyal to Foul

Foul's successes in between the first and second chronicles are due in part to the destruction of the staff of law and the breaking of the law of death; the first of these seems improbable to happen without Elena summoning Kevin, and the second seems pretty much impossible for anyone on the side of the lords to do without someone else going and using the Earthblood (and presumably it would be broken already if Foul or his allies were able to). Things get very hypothetical even if we imagine the law of death being broken but no loss of Elena and the staff, or a loss of the staff and Elena but not in the process of breaking a law of the land, let alone something that seems to be a straightforward positive or more good than bad. All the same, unless the staff was not only lost but destroyed, the sunbane is impossible, and it's hard to imagine the Clave being effective without the spectre of the sunbane, too.

Remember that during Lord Foul's Bane and The Illearth War, the principle reason Foul began an all-out offensive against the land was his acquisition of the Illearth Stone. It's not clear to what extent he could have marshaled an organized army without the ability of the stone to control his menagerie. We never really get a clear sense of the results of the past campaigns the lords have apparently fought, at least initially lost, and then survived against Foul. Troy talks about how the Lords always fight in the same place and always lose; does this result in a pillaging of the heart of the land and a temporary retreat, then return, from it by its regular inhabitants? It's not clear to me why Revelwood would have survived until TPTP, that being the case, since it's apparently not easily defended.

Also, with the past offenses, which were identified with lord foul, in mind, it's worth keeping in mind that Lord Foul didn't just "pop up" at the beginning of LFB with no prior activity against the Land in between the start of LFB and the Desecration.

The Ravers might be called small fry some of the time from the readers' perspective, but as giant ravers with shards of the illearth stone they are quite devastating even from our perspective as enemies of the land. Of course I'm not sure that Elena actually knew about the giant ravers or the stone shards at the time of drinking of the Earthblood.

Foul doesn't need any of that, high lord Kevin was the most powerful old lord "with" the staff of law. Foul didn't have the illearth stone to crush his army, the giants and the blood guard causing Kevin to send away parts of his army and in despair inact the ritual of desecration. In his eyes he had no choice
Foul is a master manipulator and tactician. He'd have no trouble finding an alternative such as the worm? Or the Elohim? Or the Insequent? Before foul cane along the ravers were mindless thugs. It's fouls designs that enable them to bring about the genocide of the giants, releasing dukkha to force the lords to call covenant who enabled amok who inadvertently set in motion the breaking of the law of death. Covenant cries out to Elena that foul was manipulating them just before she did it.
It would have been an inconvenience at best if Elena had gotten rid of the ravers.

Darkdenubis wrote:I would have commanded the Illearth Stone to cease to function for Lord Foul only. That would have crippled his ability to control and create new armies

Certainly not "crippled". He raised huge armies before without it, the Stone merely makes the process easier.

Darkdenubis wrote:would have freed Kevin from the stones influence so he didnt have to kill Elena

Assuredly.

Darkdenubis wrote: might even have caused his Ravers to rebel against him.

Very doubtful. They never rebeled before he had the Stone, and he seems able to easily master their wills.

Darkdenubis wrote:In any case, that very threat would have prevented Foul from risking any other being having control of the stone and he would most likely have buried it where no one could ever recover it, thus removing a great evil from the Land.

True. Not a bad suggestion. Although after Covenant destroyed it, Foul made the Sunbane.

Holsety wrote:the principle reason Foul began an all-out offensive against the land was his acquisition of the Illearth Stone. It's not clear to what extent he could have marshaled an organized army without the ability of the stone to control his menagerie.

He controlled even larger armies in the past. There is no question in TIW he attacked due to the Stone giving him hope for a quick, easy victory...but the armies he raised in Kevin's day would have had to have been even more momentous in order to take on and defeat the Old Lords with all their lore.

Holsety wrote:Also, with the past offenses, which were identified with lord foul, in mind, it's worth keeping in mind that Lord Foul didn't just "pop up" at the beginning of LFB with no prior activity against the Land in between the start of LFB and the Desecration.

Well he was certainly active prior to LFB for some centuries...but I assume that he was recovering from the Desecration up until shortly before the start of the Chronicles. Else why not retrieve the Illearth Stone (or have Drool and his Cavewights do it for him) earlier?

Holsety wrote:The Ravers might be called small fry some of the time from the readers' perspective, but as giant ravers with shards of the illearth stone they are quite devastating even from our perspective as enemies of the land. Of course I'm not sure that Elena actually knew about the giant ravers or the stone shards at the time of drinking of the Earthblood.

A Raver, in posession of a fragment of the Illearth Stone, and in control of a Giant's body, would have been a horrific monster. Though below a Forestal in power, almost anyone in the Land, including a fully-trained Lord weilding a lore staff, would have been overcome and killed by this evil menace.

Satansfist was probably roughly equal to Elena with the Staff of Law in power, which means titanically powerful. Saying this being was "less powerful than Wildwood" is like saying the MOAB is "less powerful than a nuke". It's true, but meaningless when standing at ground zero.

Horrim Carabal wrote:He controlled even larger armies in the past. There is no question in TIW he attacked due to the Stone giving him hope for a quick, easy victory...but the armies he raised in Kevin's day would have had to have been even more momentous in order to take on and defeat the Old Lords with all their lore.

Not sure that I agree with this. Regardless of what you think of Hile Troy and his plan it seemed to have been predicated on the size of previous armies that Foul sent against the Old Lords. Troy thought his plan could hve worked against an army five times (?) the size of the Warward, in TIW, but not against the army Foul put in the field (half a million to a million creatures?). The Illearth Stone enabled this prodigious increase in Foul's ability to coerce and create (?) creatures.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Holsety wrote:Also, with the past offenses, which were identified with lord foul, in mind, it's worth keeping in mind that Lord Foul didn't just "pop up" at the beginning of LFB with no prior activity against the Land in between the start of LFB and the Desecration.

Well he was certainly active prior to LFB for some centuries...but I assume that he was recovering from the Desecration up until shortly before the start of the Chronicles. Else why not retrieve the Illearth Stone (or have Drool and his Cavewights do it for him) earlier?

LF didn't seem to be known (other than as a bogey figure) in the Land at the time when TC enters it in LFB. While he and the Ravers may have been up to petty malices before that they were not raising armies and creating widespread destruction.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Holsety wrote:The Ravers might be called small fry some of the time from the readers' perspective, but as giant ravers with shards of the illearth stone they are quite devastating even from our perspective as enemies of the land. Of course I'm not sure that Elena actually knew about the giant ravers or the stone shards at the time of drinking of the Earthblood.

A Raver, in posession of a fragment of the Illearth Stone, and in control of a Giant's body, would have been a horrific monster. Though below a Forestal in power, almost anyone in the Land, including a fully-trained Lord weilding a lore staff, would have been overcome and killed by this evil menace.

Satansfist was probably roughly equal to Elena with the Staff of Law in power, which means titanically powerful. Saying this being was "less powerful than Wildwood" is like saying the MOAB is "less powerful than a nuke". It's true, but meaningless when standing at ground zero.

Yes, the combination of a Raver with the Illearth Stone is something incredibly powerful. The destruction of the Ravers would have been a real blow to Foul. It probably would have caused the rout of his army (as it seems likely that it was mostly controlled by the Illearth Stone) and it would possibly have deprived him, for a significant amount of time, of exerting his control at a distance. (In the Chrons he never seems to go out into the world the way he did in earlier ages.)

Regarding the Ravers I always saw them as similiar to Tolkien's Ringwraiths. Human's who have sold their souls to supernatural powers. I think these kinds of creatures cannot be made and so Foul would have to wait to find more bad seeds, which could take time.

Holsety wrote:It's not clear to me why Revelwood would have survived until TPTP, that being the case, since it's apparently not easily defended.

AFAIK, Revelwood is a totally unique creation of the New Lords. It is situated in Kurash Plenethor (Stricken Stone) where the final battles against Foul's armies in the age of the Old Lord's always took place. Since Foul hadn't raised any armies after the Desecration, until TIW, there had been no big battles in which Revelwood might have been damaged.

u.

ussusimiel wrote:Regardless of what you think of Hile Troy

..not much, one of the most irritating and annoying characters ever.

ussusimiel wrote: and his plan it seemed to have been predicated on the size of previous armies that Foul sent against the Old Lords. Troy thought his plan could hve worked against an army five times (?) the size of the Warward, in TIW, but not against the army Foul put in the field (half a million to a million creatures?). The Illearth Stone enabled this prodigious increase in Foul's ability to coerce and create (?) creatures.

Good point, you could be right. I assumed Foul would need huge armies to contend with a Council of fully trained Old Lords (with the Seven Wards).

ussusimiel wrote: The destruction of the Ravers would have been a real blow to Foul. It probably would have caused the rout of his army (as it seems likely that it was mostly controlled by the Illearth Stone) and it would possibly have deprived him, for a significant amount of time, of exerting his control at a distance. (In the Chrons he never seems to go out into the world the way he did in earlier ages.)

You are right. The Ravers are incredibly convenient for Foul. They can eliminate enemies (or even make them allies) through posession, they can infiltrate the "good guys" and tell Foul about their plans, they can act as messengers, they can sow fear and despair among Foul's enemies by their evil acts.

"Do you Rave?" etc.

I think they are even more valuable than a Ring Wraith, who really are not suited to subterfuge at all, only battle.

Not sure what you mean foul not known in the land at the time of covenants entry. He wasn't known to Kevin until he revealed himself and crushed Kevin's army and the most powerful lords ever known. Without the illearth stone.
Ravers are not so powerful, a blood guard killed one in sea reach with a fragment of the illearth stone and a giants body! Mhoram kills another. If ravers could die they wouldn't have lasted very long at all
Forestals. Now that wouldve been a good corruption

jonnyredleader wrote:Not sure what you mean foul not known in the land at the time of covenants entry.

Everybody's (Lena, Atiaran, the New Lords etc.) reaction to the first mention of LF's name in LFB seems to be one of shock. It's as if it's the first time that they've heard that he survived the Ritual of Desecration. They know of Foul by legend and story but it seems that he has not been openly active since the Desecration.

u.

ah i see. well kevin did achieve a success of sorts by diminishing foul. but foul always comes back and bides his time till he's strong enough or his plans are laid. he pretty much realised that open warfare wouldnt get him the ends he wanted with the destruction of the arch of time so he changed tactics. Its not about strength its was about finding a way to escape his prison and white gold was the key. In kevins day it was about corrupting the creators creation and forcing his hand to intervene thus breaking the arch that way. He just changes tactics.

jonnyredleader wrote: Forestals. Now that wouldve been a good corruption

I wonder where the Forestals actually fit into the hierarchy of powers.

We know they are above Ravers and above Demondim, because we've seen them fight those.

Forestal vs Insequent? I assume Forestal.

Forestal vs High Lord w/Staff of Law?

Forestal vs Elohim? I'm tending Elohim.

Didn't Wildwood shut off Covenant's ring? IIRC, it was the annoying Hile Troy who was using it, though, not TC.

Horrim Carabal wrote:I wonder where the Forestals actually fit into the hierarchy of powers.

We know they are above Ravers and above Demondim, because we've seen them fight those.

Forestal vs Insequent? I assume Forestal.

Forestal vs High Lord w/Staff of Law?

Forestal vs Elohim? I'm tending Elohim.

Didn't Wildwood shut off Covenant's ring? IIRC, it was the annoying Hile Troy who was using it, though, not TC.

Forestals are interesting. This thread suggests some ideas about their origins.

It's one of the things I like about the Last Chrons that we get to find out more about them. For some reason I connect them with the Creator, maybe something in FR gave me that idea. They seem to be creatures of the forest, created by the power of trees/wood. Within the forest they appear to have immense power, but outside of that they seem to have little power, or maybe more accurately, little interest in exerting power.

The Forestals' power feels, to me, to be closer to that of the Elohim than, say, the New Lords. Like many of the powers in the world of the Land, they are paradoxically measureless and limited at the same time.

u.

ussusimiel, it frightens me that you have your finger on the pulse of a thread last commented on in 2003.

Ananda wrote:ussusimiel, it frightens me that you have your finger on the pulse of a thread last commented on in 2003.

Apart from having too much time on my hands, this thread, started by Sarge in Mallorys, was a fun way to delve into the multitude of stuff on the Watch. I've no encyclopedic knowledge of all the threads, but a reasonable idea of what's out there combined with judicious use of the Search option can often yield worthwhile results

u.

Pretty sure the Elohim created forestals or taught the forest how to create the guardians

jonnyredleader wrote:Pretty sure the Elohim created forestals or taught the forest how to create the guardians

Findail's story was exactly that in the Second Chronicles. The One Forest took what the Elohim taught them and bound that Appointed into the Collossus. Once the Interdiction was broken it took the trees some time, but they eventually created Forestals to help them. None of that would have been possible without the Elohim knowledge shared with the One Forest.

jonnyredleader wrote:I think that makes a lot of sense and you're right I've seen that happen myself when someone is just too prematurely promoted or hasnt developed the skills and more importantly the experience to deal with their new role.
Having said that nothing in the book up until covenant shows up suggests Elena hadnt done a fantastic job of the high lord role. In her defence (yes there is a little bias but I'm trying to be objective lol) she went through the loresraat which in itself was a major achievement in self discipline, was voted in by choice of the council including mhoram, helped Troy to become warmark, was respected by her peers. The way she handles the council and people showed great leadership and confidence, something everyone needed at such a troubling time, handled TC with such deftness that he would have followed her into peril (which he did), created the marrowmeld which showed mhoram why the oath of peace had hindered their unlocking the wards of kevins power and fought kevins own shade alone for how many days? She was a powerful and strong leader and a good choice at the time. Her weakness was that she didn't understand the futility of attacking despite and
the consequences of actions as powerful as the power of command. Her
passion overruled her reason at a highly pressurised moment with the fate of the land and her friends at hand, hindsight is a wonderful thing and she knew shed got it wrong as soon as she did it. She did her best and I feel very sorry for her

This pretty much describes how I feel about Elena, as well. The only ways in which I am cross with her concern her incestuous desire for Covenant, her insensitivity to Amok's death, and her refusal to hear alternatives to drinking the EarthBlood. But in certain ways she's the victim of Covenant's and Foul's actions.

Cord Hurn wrote:
This pretty much describes how I feel about Elena, as well. The only ways in which I am cross with her concern her incestuous desire for Covenant, her insensitivity to Amok's death, and her refusal to hear alternatives to drinking the EarthBlood. But in certain ways she's the victim of Covenant's and Foul's actions.

I know my opinion is unpopular around here, but I still maintain that Elena was mentally ill.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Cord Hurn wrote:
This pretty much describes how I feel about Elena, as well. The only ways in which I am cross with her concern her incestuous desire for Covenant, her insensitivity to Amok's death, and her refusal to hear alternatives to drinking the EarthBlood. But in certain ways she's the victim of Covenant's and Foul's actions.

I know my opinion is unpopular around here, but I still maintain that Elena was mentally ill.

I'd agree with that. It's crystal clear she's quite emotionally unstable, and there are hints something a lot more severe could be going on. Wildness in her eyes and such. Her obsession with Kevin and despair certainly seem more like compulsions than personality flaws.

Cambo wrote:

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Cord Hurn wrote:
This pretty much describes how I feel about Elena, as well. The only ways in which I am cross with her concern her incestuous desire for Covenant, her insensitivity to Amok's death, and her refusal to hear alternatives to drinking the EarthBlood. But in certain ways she's the victim of Covenant's and Foul's actions.

I know my opinion is unpopular around here, but I still maintain that Elena was mentally ill.

I'd agree with that. It's crystal clear she's quite emotionally unstable, and there are hints something a lot more severe could be going on. Wildness in her eyes and such. Her obsession with Kevin and despair certainly seem more like compulsions than personality flaws.

Yes, there are mental issues...beyond doubt, textually explicit.
[[I don't think it's really that unpopular/unrecognized around here, is it?]]

The problem is the multiplicity...too many inputs, too many possible outcomes, no necessary and definitive causal linkages.
And despite the "yuck/nasty/evil/immoral" factor in the incestuous thread...
it ain't anything like unnatural or even uncommon, particularly in the relationship as it exists.
It is both psycho-culturally realistic, and a symbol/sign that 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark.'

Vraith wrote:

Cambo wrote:

Horrim Carabal wrote: I know my opinion is unpopular around here, but I still maintain that Elena was mentally ill.

I'd agree with that. It's crystal clear she's quite emotionally unstable, and there are hints something a lot more severe could be going on. Wildness in her eyes and such. Her obsession with Kevin and despair certainly seem more like compulsions than personality flaws.

Yes, there are mental issues...beyond doubt, textually explicit.
[[I don't think it's really that unpopular/unrecognized around here, is it?]]

The problem is the multiplicity...too many inputs, too many possible outcomes, no necessary and definitive causal linkages.
And despite the "yuck/nasty/evil/immoral" factor in the incestuous thread...
it ain't anything like unnatural or even uncommon, particularly in the relationship as it exists.
It is both psycho-culturally realistic, and a symbol/sign that 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark.'

The incestuous stuff was strange and uncomfortable, but I've never really felt it was immoral. A sign of two people being kinda messed up, yeah, but in both their cases the damage was already done in that regard. If they had ended up doing the nasty, what exactly would have changed. Covenant would have probably still held to his cowardly "bargain" and Elena would have still been obsessed over Kevin. Breaking fundamental laws of the universe and handing your metaphysical enemy a powerful servant (Elena) and tool (SoL) are far worse crimes than icky consensual sex.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Cord Hurn wrote:
This pretty much describes how I feel about Elena, as well. The only ways in which I am cross with her concern her incestuous desire for Covenant, her insensitivity to Amok's death, and her refusal to hear alternatives to drinking the EarthBlood. But in certain ways she's the victim of Covenant's and Foul's actions.

I know my opinion is unpopular around here, but I still maintain that Elena was mentally ill.

That wasn't necessarily clear to me from the text, but in the "What Has Gone Before" section of ROTE (this isn't spoiler material,) SRD says:

The Council is now led by High Lord Elena, his daughter by his rape of Lena. With her, he begins to experience the real consequences of his violence: it is clar to him - if to no one else - that she is not complete sane.