Kevin's Watch

If the Lords formed an allience with the Ramen and others, although the giants seem to be immune in the FC, they would probably be at odds soon just because the ramen lack the Oath of Peace.

I could see it disemble shotly there after,...

Warmark wrote:

Wayfriend wrote:That being said, I still say that proper use of Ranyhyn would have alerted the Warward to Foul's army's course a week or so before it was even spotted. Tricky timeloose trotters, those Ranyhyn.

I'm stil not sure this would work, the Ranyhyn roam the planes of Ra while waiting to be called dont they?

How would anyone see when they leave then?

Send Haruchai to Landsdrop. Keep their Ranyhyn at Revelstone.

I think questions of what someone like Hile Troy could conceivably do within his limitations don't really apply, since this thread is about what you would have done, or better yet, an imaginary character that shared your opinions but (for example) hadn't acquired his/her knowledge of warfare from fantasy books and had some leadership ability.

In my case, I for example would have used all of my persuasion to stop Elena from seeking the Seventh Ward and have her send Amatin instead. If I was convincing enough, I think she could have agreed, and thus the plot would have been diverted.

inquestor wrote:

The Oath of Peace was a Way of Life for the people of the land. they couldn't conceive of guerilla training, or any real preparation for an offensive at all!

Did Hile Troy take the Oath of Peace? I would think if the Lords were going to put him in charge of the Warmark they would at least ask him to. Maybe they thought the OoP could not be applied to people not from the Land. They certainly never asked Covenant to take the OoP. Of course if you carry the wild magic that destroys peace it would seem silly to take an oath to keep the peace.

Wayfriend wrote:

Warmark wrote:

Wayfriend wrote:That being said, I still say that proper use of Ranyhyn would have alerted the Warward to Foul's army's course a week or so before it was even spotted. Tricky timeloose trotters, those Ranyhyn.

I'm stil not sure this would work, the Ranyhyn roam the planes of Ra while waiting to be called dont they?

How would anyone see when they leave then?

Send Haruchai to Landsdrop. Keep their Ranyhyn at Revelstone.

Yes i see that, but would the ranyhyn stay there when they are not needed?
I was under the impression they returned to the Planes of Ra once they were released.

Sandgorgon rider wrote:inquestor wrote:

The Oath of Peace was a Way of Life for the people of the land. they couldn't conceive of guerilla training, or any real preparation for an offensive at all!

Did Hile Troy take the Oath of Peace? I would think if the Lords were going to put him in charge of the Warmark they would at least ask him to. Maybe they thought the OoP could not be applied to people not from the Land. They certainly never asked Covenant to take the OoP. Of course if you carry the wild magic that destroys peace it would seem silly to take an oath to keep the peace.

Hile Troy said, "Let me go, I haven't sworn any oath!" to which Lord Mhoram replied, "The Oath of Peace binds..."

So, the answer to your question would be NO, Hile Troy did not swear any Oath of Peace.

MrKABC wrote:Hile Troy said, "Let me go, I haven't sworn any oath!" to which Lord Mhoram replied, "The Oath of Peace binds..."

So, the answer to your question would be NO, Hile Troy did not swear any Oath of Peace.

... but he is still bound by it.

I think Hile is only bound from Mhoram's view of what should be, rather than what is. Mhoram at that time probably felt strongly about the Oath, and that all should be bound. He probably couldn't even conceive of Hile's view.

The Oath was always a choice for the people of the Land, not like the Harachai Vow, which was enforced by Earthpower. The People of the Land each took the Oath of Peace, but, other than social pressure or conscience, weren't preternaturally bound by it. Not to downgrade the pressure or strength of commitment they felt, mind you. It was obviously a deeply held belief.

But Hile didn't grow up in the Land...

I think Hile's words there show his view that he is still an outsider to the Land, no matter how much he loves it or is able to do to save it. He needs to have personal worth and value (and pay back the new sight and purpose the Land has given him, as well as payment for the cost of his summoning by Atarian) , so he contributes the only skill he has as warmark. But , as an outsider, he never made the Oath or considered himself bound by it. (My opinion)

I guess its like being in the military; you can not protect a democracy and also be a democracy. As Warmark, you have to cause harm to protect those served.

My take: Troy didn't feel he was bound to any authority or code. He didn't have to answer to anyone except his own ego. He - and only he - would defeat Lord Foul's armies, and he would do so reckless of cost. He's just as bad as Elena in that way. Which was why Caerroil Wildwood was right to spoil his attempt to "save" Elena. The white gold in Troy's hands would be like...like...(insert modern political parallel of your choice)

Matrixman wrote:My take: Troy didn't feel he was bound to any authority or code. He didn't have to answer to anyone except his own ego. He - and only he - would defeat Lord Foul's armies, and he would do so reckless of cost. He's just as bad as Elena in that way. Which was why Caerroil Wildwood was right to spoil his attempt to "save" Elena. The white gold in Troy's hands would be like...like...(insert modern political parallel of your choice)

While Troy did not come up in the conversation, this reminds me of what Mr. Donaldson said at the Elohimfest dinner, about how both Elena and Kevin suffered from a form of madness in that they each thought that they were the only answer to the Land's need.

Matrixman wrote:My take: Troy didn't feel he was bound to any authority or code. He didn't have to answer to anyone except his own ego. He - and only he - would defeat Lord Foul's armies, and he would do so reckless of cost.

One of those selfish folks who tries to save the world, eh?

While I certainly see what MM is saying, and can see the parrallel that Duchess mentions, I don't think it was a case of Troy thinking, "I'm better than you."

In terms of strategy, he'd proven his ability. Troy loved the Land, and if somebody better had come along, he would almost certainly have stepped aside I think.

There just wasn't a better alternative to what he was proposing. And certainly nobody could have predicted how massively he'd be outnumbered.

--A

Wayfriend wrote:One of those selfish folks who tries to save the world, eh?

Clever!

I guess we got sidetracked into another Hile Troy debate, but if his plans hadn't gone awry as much as they did, maybe we wouldn't be here discussing alternative strategies. There are already several threads on Hile Troy, which just goes to show how strongly readers react to him, whether positively or negatively.

I like to bash Troy almost out of habit. I should think about reconsidering my view of him, but he's such an easy target.

Matrixman wrote: I should think about reconsidering my view of him, but he's such an easy target.

that's probably because he was blind, though.

Matrixman wrote: I like to bash Troy almost out of habit. I should think about reconsidering my view of him, but he's such an easy target.

You know, Hile is really one of my favorites, strategic incompetence aside. I am not sure why... I remember thinking the first time I read TC that he was a good strategist, but I was young. The the next time, I remembered he almost threw himself off of Kevin's Watch when he saw fouls' army, and later, after reading some posts, I began wondering how it could have been done differently, but I don't think Hile was capable of doing anything differently because of his limitations, and who he was.

But you gotta love him; he just keeps pushing and pushing, himself and everyone around him, and he was certainly willing to sacrifice himself for the cause. He showed this at the ruins (forgot the name) outside garroting deep, and all along the way of the march, making sure his sacrifice was at least as great as everyone else's. He certainly had blinders on, that's for sure.

One of the memorable images from the march is when Hile is trying to get the formation to march faster, and he comes alongside the solider who is beating the drum that sets the rythm of the march, and he is clapping out the rythm into the man's ear to make sure he gets the right tempo. This sticks out for some reason.

I guess I just know many people like Hile in RL: incompetent, but convinced that any problem can be solved by brute force alone, as long as you just keep fighting.

Matrixman wrote:I like to bash Troy almost out of habit. I should think about reconsidering my view of him, but he's such an easy target.

To that end: I think Donaldson's intention was to have Troy be a sympathetic character. (Heck, he makes all his characters sympathetic.) If Troy was intended to be either a idiot or a jerk or a idiot-jerk, his function as a foil would be diminished.

iquestor wrote:I guess I just know many people like Hile in RL: incompetent, but convinced that any problem can be solved by brute force alone, as long as you just keep fighting.

Thing is, I'm not sure he was that incompetent. Sure, he made a fundamental mistake in not having a decent early warning system, and in not having some way of getting a better estimate of enemy forces, but other than that, his idea was fundamentally sound. Against a force of the size he envisaged, it should have worked quite well, even given the "surprise" of a late warning.

He strategy was scarcely to charge in and hack everybody to death.

And as I've asked elsewhere, if he had known the size of the force he was facing, what could he have done? Would he even have been able to attempt an alternate strategy knowing that he was so outnumbered?

--A

My view is that he is like the teacher who has never been out of the classroom; all theory and no practical experience.

By brute force, I didn't mean charging and hacking; I meant that he just keeps pushing on no matter what the cost to himself or anyone else.

But, I agree that, either way, he could not have done anything else significant, no matter what he knew or when he knew it. I think if he had known the true size of the army, he would still ultimately have attempted what he did.

iquestor wrote:My view is that he is like the teacher who has never been out of the classroom; all theory and no practical experience.

I certainly agree there. Once before, I said that it looked like Troy might have been a fine strategist, but he wasn't much of a tactician.

I'm not sure he would have attempted the same thing if he'd known though. His strategy was based on a significant, but not insurmountable numerical superiority on the part of his foes.

Had he known the size of Flesh-Harrowers army, he might well have been daunted. The only possible strategy for taking on a force of half a million with one of 20,000 would be a long, slow, painful guerrilla war, one of constant attrition. Which would leave the army to ravage the Land at will.

Without his ignorance, the outcome might have been very different.

--A

Troy might have been a fine strategist, but he wasn't much of a tactician.

well said. I also see your point on the army.