FR First Impression

[Fist and Faith]

The problem with Linden was, and remains, purely Linden. She served a valuable purpose in the Second Chrons, and, annoying as she was, she really did work out well. I originally joined THOOLAH mostly because it was a hilarious idea, not because I hated her. But she did annoy the crap out of me, and I resented the fact that Covenant had to share the limelight with her. But she and Covenant forged a story of extraordinary beauty and complexity.

Now, otoh, she is the only star! For the entirety of the first two books!! And she'll still be the star in the second two!!! Covenant will only be along for the ride. And she's still forever doubting, and desperately gathering her strength for every task, from summoning a caesure to tying her shoes!

[Cail]

I don't think anyone disliked Linden because she was new or different; I think she's disliked because she's annoying. I don't think that anyone is complaining about new elements to the story, in fact, I think people would be even more pissed off if SRD kept retelling the same story over and over again.

But what he's done in the last two books is reduce this amazing world he's created to a bunch of standard fantasy set-pieces, and introduced new super-powerful wizards rather than dealing with existing magics and lore.

And Malik's right, I'm not sure how SRD could have done it, but I think the Last Chrons have started at the wrong time, and gone into unnecessary detail about things that might not matter.

[ninjaboy]

I didn't like Runes,, but I really enjoyed Fatal Revenant.

I don't think there's any lack of continuity - in the previous books we were told certian things about the history of the world the Land's in from all sorts of characters. Their knowledge may have been incomplete and we wouldn't have questioned it - nor would Covenant or Linden. Then people come along who we haven't met before who have different versions of events.. And I can think of a number of reasons the Elohim may have decided to avoid the presence of the Insequent..
I don't mind at all that the history of the Land is more complex than we first thought... There are many mysteries in our own world.. For example, no-one is sure when or how the first humans came to Australia.

I must be the only person who wasn't happy Linden ressurrected Covenant.. I would have been happy if he just gave her occasional guidance - that sort of thing, and not come back to life..

I admit the return of the Giants was.. convenient.. But when you're fighting Skurj, Ramen and Stonedownors - hell even Haruchai - don't do much..

BUT the ONE problem I had with Revenant was that in the entire time Linden was in the age of Berek - and they were there for days - did she ask Jeremiah or Covenant what happenned to Liand, Stave, Anele and the Ramen after Esmer's attempted 'intervention.'

[Cail]

I knew Covenant had to come back, but I'm not thrilled about it.

What bugs me about the Insequent is that people in the Land did know about them, they just never bothered mentioning them.

[ninjaboy]

I don't think the world has been reduced to 'standard fantasy set pieces'... I think it's become so much more complex!

There is so much about a lot of the charachters that we don't understand.. And we haven even met a some of them yet! We can only know the answers to the Questions Linden asks. And she asks the wrong ones too often.. And often the characters like the Insequent, the Elohim and Esmer are not very forthcoming with info.. But I believe that by the end of the next book a lot more will be revealed..

There may be so much that we need to know that the final Chronichles will end up needing a 5th book.

[ninjaboy]

Unfortunately all the people who we had met in the land who knew of the Insequent (the Haruchai, Elohim) had strong motivations for not discussing them..

And Cail, I strongly hope that no other unbelievable or non-previously discussed beings enter the pages of the next books in the series.

we're just at that annoying point where we have so many more questions than answers...

And I agree with what you mentioned before - how the end of the 2nd Chronichles was a fitting end for the series - the was no NEED for a new series in my mind either.

And I said I wasn't too happy with Covenant coming back to life because.. can there just be an awesome story where something like that DOESN"T happen??? (1st Dune Trilogy.. Narnia.. the Bible..) It'a almost as frequent as movies that have the theme music from 2001: A Space Oddyssey in them.

[Zarathustra]

Unfortunately all the people who we had met in the land who knew of the Insequent (the Haruchai, Elohim) had strong motivations for not discussing them..

Such as? What possible reason could restrain the Haruchai, for instance, from telling the struggling Lords of Mhoram's time that an entire race of super wizards might be able to help out? Wouldn't it have been beneficial during their struggles against LF in the 1st Chrons to have a handful of Insequent fighting at their sides? Especially given the fact that the Lords were so weak? Nah, they couldn't mention that. It might embarrass the poor Haruchai to talk about the Vizard's giant can of whip-ass. Better that 10s of 1000s of good people die than to reveal that embarrassing factoid.

And I said I wasn't too happy with Covenant coming back to life because.. can there just be an awesome story where something like that DOESN"T happen??? (1st Dune Trilogy.. Narnia.. the Bible..) It'a almost as frequent as movies that have the theme music from 2001: A Space Oddyssey in them.

I haven't finished the Dune trilogy, and I don't remember much from Narnia. Could you be more specific? I do seem to remember something about that Jesus character, so you don't have to fill me in on that one. And, does Return of the King count?

Oh, and that "theme music" is Also Sprach Zarathustra, composed in 1896 by Richard Strauss. Maybe you knew that. I just thought it was funny to refer to this 19th century music based on a 19th century philosophy book by Friedrich Nietzsche as the theme music for a 1960's science fiction movie (itself based on a s.f. book) about the year 2001. Anyway, yes, it's a recognizable little tune. Kind of catchy.

[wayfriend]

What possible reason could restrain the Haruchai, for instance, from telling the struggling Lords of Mhoram's time that an entire race of super wizards might be able to help out?

What, the same guys who didn't tell the Lords about Earthblood when they knew about it all the time? Also, the Vizard story included an explanation of why the Haruchai don't speak of him.

[Zarathustra]

What possible reason could restrain the Haruchai, for instance, from telling the struggling Lords of Mhoram's time that an entire race of super wizards might be able to help out?

What, the same guys who didn't tell the Lords about Earthblood when they knew about it all the time?

That is a good point. However, I think there are crucial differences . . . such as the Bloodguard's duty to the old Lords, specifically their knowledge that Kevin wished for the Wards to remain hidden until the new Lords were ready. That's completely different from merely being sheepish about an embarrassing event centuries ago. Additionally, it is distinctly different in its potential for danger, too. Having powerful friends to help, friends who are adept in their particular skills, isn't nearly as potentially ruinous as giving over the 7th Ward before the Lords were ready to handle them.

But you're right that the Haruchai at least have a history standing around purposely omitting vital information. When it's done right (i.e. planned out ahead of time, crucial to the plot, crucial to the characters, and having fundamental consequences in the end--rather than merely being there to cover up a narrative hole) then it can indeed be a powerful writing technique. I enjoyed it thoroughly the 1st time. That was a pivotal moment in this series.

Also, the Vizard story included an explanation of why the Haruchai don't speak of him.

That would be the "covering up a plot hole," right? I thought it was merely the embarrassment factor. My memory of the details is fading. Was there something else?

[Stutty]

1st) I think it's entirely believable to assume the Bloodguard never mentioned the Insequent simply because they knew them well enough to understand they wouldn't have done anything to help out the new lords.

2nd) SRD has addressed this somewhat. While he left wiggle room for the final chrons within the confines of the 2nd, he did not have the whole thing planned out. In addition, he says he grew and developed ideas he is damned proud of, and if that generates some inconsistency, so be it (paraphrased.) I can put this imaginary construct of the Land aside and accept that. Mostly because I trust the man.

stutt

[Auleliel]

[quote="Cail"]I don't think anyone disliked Linden because she was new or different; I think she's disliked because she's annoying. I don't think that anyone is complaining about new elements to the story, in fact, I think people would be even more pissed off if SRD kept retelling the same story over and over again.[quote]
That explains pretty much exactly why I joined THOOLAH.

[Atrium]

Why assume that the Insequent would be of help to the lords?
We dont know their motives well enough. Maybe the blood guard did not trust them, and therefore did not take them into consideration.

Im more bothered that the lords didnt look to the elohim for help. Their motives should be well compatible with the lords.

[dlbpharmd]

What possible reason could restrain the Haruchai, for instance, from telling the struggling Lords of Mhoram's time that an entire race of super wizards might be able to help out?

What, the same guys who didn't tell the Lords about Earthblood when they knew about it all the time? Also, the Vizard story included an explanation of why the Haruchai don't speak of him.

The Haruchai didn't know of the Earthblood, all they knew about was something vague referred to as "The Power of Command."

[mcnpauls]

I love the Insequent, and I really do not mind that we're discovering things that makes us see SRD's world in a completely new light.

[wayfriend]

What possible reason could restrain the Haruchai, for instance, from telling the struggling Lords of Mhoram's time that an entire race of super wizards might be able to help out?

What, the same guys who didn't tell the Lords about Earthblood when they knew about it all the time?

That is a good point. However, I think there are crucial differences . . . such as the Bloodguard's duty to the old Lords, specifically their knowledge that Kevin wished for the Wards to remain hidden until the new Lords were ready. That's completely different from merely being sheepish about an embarrassing event centuries ago.

The Haruchai distrust and disdain lore in all its forms. The Insequent represent lore or at least power, and the Haruchai are reticent of helping the Lords attain power or lore, especially if it is given and not earned. There is a quote to that affect in the First Cs. (Which is, in fact, the underlying reason why they were faithful to Kevin on this point, when in many other points they view Kevin as a betrayer or at least intent on tarnishing their image.)

So I don't think its too far out of character, when you consider that angle.

It may be that we want to find a distinction in order to justify a dislike. Of course the two situations aren't identical, but I think that there's enough precident there that Donaldson chose the correct Haruchai response.

[mcnpauls]

Why on earth would we think that the Insequent as a race would have helped the lords anyway? Aren't they by nature utterly individualistic seekers of knowledge/power for their own purposes.

[Fist and Faith]

And yet, the Theomach helped Berek out a WHOLE LOT. The Theomach made sure the Lords would come into being.

[Cail]

And yet, the Theomach helped Berek out a WHOLE LOT. The Theomach made sure the Lords would come into being.

'Zactly.

And more to the point (to everyone who doesn't have a problem with the Insequent never coming up before), why didn't they intervene on their own after the RoD, or TC's summoning, or on the Quest for the One Tree, or any of the other times that they'd have been a huge help?

[wayfriend]

The Theomach helped Berek for the sole reason of getting to Bare Isle. He didn't do it to help the Lords.

Allthough I agree there is the "where were they?" factor, and have said as much shortly after *I* first finished.

[I'm Murrin]

Personal gain. The Theomach has foiled the Elohim in a more significant way than any other Insequent has managed, and he did it by maneuvering himself and Berek into a specific situation. He also intervened in Roger's action not just to prevent damage to time but to do so before the Elohim could.

When there is no knowledge to earn in doing something, nor any achievement--such as doing something the Elohim could not--they will have no interest in it. If the Elohim had no reason to intervene in the Land's affairs between Berek's Lordship and the arrival of the Sunsage, and there was no Lore of interest to be discovered, then the Insequent would likely see no reason to interfere also. The lack of direct intervention in earlier stories is one of the things that can be explained most reasonably. It's more the apparent direct contradiction of facts (Ak-Haru being Haruchai, and the first Guardian) that is the problem.