US Presidental Elections 2008

[iQuestor]

I think you are right -- Obama stumbled a lot in answering questions on faith. He grew up Muslim, which in and of itself is not bad. Most Mulsims are leace loving people and its the extremists that cause problems, just like extremist christians. But I do think the only reason he was with that Christian church in the first place is to make sure he was covered when he went into politics. He admitted never going to church as a child, he said his mom was a deeply spiritual woman who didnt go to church because of their stance on segregation -- which is complete b*llsh!t in my opinion. If you are deeply spiritual, you find a church. He was in indonesia for 4 years, which are Muslim, and also attended a Catholic School. Honestly, I dont think his background on religion is a big deal, except that he is spinning it and trying to sell it to the christians -- I think he is just painting a picture for us to get close to the Christian voters.

How does 4 years in a Muslim country, two years of which was spent in a Catholic school equate to "growing up Muslim"? I have family members who spent more time than that in Jordan and Lebanon who'd really like to know.

Sorry for my typos in the above quote.

Well, I guess I will rephrase it -- I know he didnt grow up Muslim like say, kids in Iraq do where they are required to remember the Koran, etc. My understanding is that he had a stronger link to the Muslim religion as an organized religion than he ever did the Christianity. He went to a Catholic School, but (again, my understanding) is that he wasnt a Catholic -- this is normal, sometimes thats the only school available. I think he is hiding how much he was involved with the Muslim religion as a child because he thinks it will be bad for his political chances at the WHite House. I could be wrong on this, of course.

His mother never attended Christian Church by his own adnmission. During the interview, he said he was a young lawyer, and spent his free time helping Charities and helping set up Churches when he said it was pointed out to him, "How can you set up a Church when you don't go to Church?" This is when he began looking for a church to go to and ended up with the Rev. Wright. This is when I think he knew he had to be a member of a christian church early on if he wanted to have a long career in politics. Just my opinion.

So I guess my ponit is that he did have a stronger affiliation with Muslim religion than with Christinity, which I feel is just him being ploitically savvy. Again, I think he is hiding how much he was involved with the Muslim Religion.

My other point is I don't really care if he is Muslim (as long as he isnt an extremist, which I dont think he is), but I think the Christian voters and others will let it affect their judgement.

[Plissken]

My point is, this is what you think. I'm honestly not trying to be rude here but, unless you've got something to back it up, you could look at that post and have equally valid grounds to conclude that he's secretly Catholic.

As for his claim that his mother was "deeply spiritual" is BS because she didn't "find a church" -- I guess you'd have to ask my daughter whether or not her Daddy's legitimately a spiritual person or not. On the one hand, after 12 years of religious schooling I left the church I was raised in because of their love affair with fear (of Catholics, of jewelry, of meat, of any other form of spirituality, of questions, etc.), but, on the other hand, I never found another church, so...

[Cail]

Link

The battle over the word "bitter" between Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton has sparked a new look at the candidates and their stance on the Second Amendment.

At a closed-door fundraiser just over a week ago, the Illinois senator referred to some small-town Pennsylvanians as "bitter" people who "cling to guns and religion."

"I didn't say it as well as I should have," Obama admitted in Muncie, Indiana, on Saturday, the day after he first defended his comments, "because the truth is that these traditions that are passed on from generation to generation -- those are important."

Clinton, speaking at the Compassion Forum on Sunday, said those remarks about some could be seen as "elitist" and "patronizing."

But those words -- specifically on people who "cling to guns" -- have allowed a Second Amendment debate to surface during the 2008 election.

In terms of policy, there's not much to separate Clinton and Obama on the issue of guns. Both would restrict gun purchases to one a month -- and both want to renew the assault weapons ban.

But policy and politics don't always mesh perfectly.

Clinton recently touted her experience with guns as a young child.

"You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl," Clinton said in Valparaiso, Indiana, on Saturday.

"Some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It's part of culture. It's part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it's an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter."

A visibly agitated Obama accused Clinton on Sunday of acting like "Annie Oakley ... packin' a six-shooter" in her attempts to connect with gun owners.

"She's running around talking about how this is an insult to sportsmen, how she values the Second Amendment," he said, his voice rising. "She's talking like she's Annie Oakley! Hillary Clinton's out there like she's on the duck blind every Sunday, [like] she's packin' a six-shooter! C'mon! She knows better."

But this isn't the first time in the primary race that the New York senator has spoken about unloading some shotgun shells.

At her first campaign stop in Wisconsin on February 16, Clinton told an audience at The Brat Stop in Kenosha about her childhood hunting experience.

"You know you may not believe it, but I've actually gone hunting," she said during a riff about gun control and protecting the Second Amendment. "I know, you may not believe it, but it's true. My father taught me to shoot a hundred years ago."

But all the back-and-forth between the two Democratic candidates is doing little to further the gun debate.

A gun control group, however, hopes a new ad campaign will.

Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a group co-chaired by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, plans to spend more than $1 million to air a television ad beginning this week urging Congress to close a loophole by forcing buyers at gun shows to undergo a federal background check.

The ad, which will air in Pennsylvania, New York, Arizona, Maryland and Florida, features clips from all three major presidential candidates.

"I'll be on your side for closing the gun show loophole," Clinton says. "Crack down on them. Close the gun show loopholes," Obama says.

And McCain adds, "Convicted criminals have been able to buy and sell thousands of guns at gun shows because of a loophole in the law. Close the loophole."

The issue has been a minefield for Democrats running for president.

Back in 2000, former Vice President Al Gore pushed for tougher gun laws and lost.

"The perception was that Al Gore's troubles in small towns and rural communities was based on the perception he was going to be tougher on gun laws than any other candidate," said Amy Walter, editor of National Journal's "The Hotline."

And now in 2008, both Democrats are careful to voice support for the Second Amendment.

"There is not a contradiction between protecting the Second Amendment rights of Americans and figuring out how we can keep, for example, assault weapons off the street," Clinton said on Saturday.

Clinton has been a supporter of gun control during her time in office. She voted for a 10-year extension of the assault weapons ban and voted for requiring extensive background checks at gun shows.

She also supports licensing and registration of handguns, mandatory trigger locks for handguns, holding adults responsible for their children's use of guns, raising the youth handgun ban from age 18 to 21, limiting gun sales to one per month and allowing the Consumer Products Safety Commission regulate guns.

Obama, meanwhile, supports extending the assault weapons ban; supports a national law against carrying concealed weapons, with exceptions for retired police and military personnel; and supports limiting gun sales to one per month.

But promises by all the candidates to protect the fundamental right to gun ownership won't impress the gun lobby.

The National Rifle Association gave both Clinton and Obama an "F" on gun policies.

The NRA hardly spared McCain, giving him a C+ in their assessment.

While McCain is occasionally asked about the subject, he remains quiet on specifics -- and rarely talks unprompted about either God or guns on the stump.
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The Arizona senator sponsored legislation requiring background checks at gun shows, voted against a 10-year extension of the assault weapons ban and opposed legislation requiring trigger locks for handguns.

McCain also opposed the 1994 crime bill, which contained the assault weapons ban.

I'm seeing a pattern in Obama's behavior. He says or does something controversial, then gets indignant when he's called on it. He played up a stereotype and got nailed, and his response is, "I could have worded that better"? Please.

Add to that, he wants to do away with concealed carry permits (more power to the feds, less to the states) except for retired government employees....(hmmmmmmm). Well, looks like Hil's the only major candidate that has a shot of getting my vote.

[iQuestor]

My point is, this is what you think. I'm honestly not trying to be rude here but, unless you've got something to back it up, you could look at that post and have equally valid grounds to conclude that he's secretly Catholic.

As for his claim that his mother was "deeply spiritual" is BS because she didn't "find a church" -- I guess you'd have to ask my daughter whether or not her Daddy's legitimately a spiritual person or not. On the one hand, after 12 years of religious schooling I left the church I was raised in because of their love affair with fear (of Catholics, of jewelry, of meat, of any other form of spirituality, of questions, etc.), but, on the other hand, I never found another church, so...

Pliss, I can't argue -- and I dont think you are being rude. You have a right to question my facts, and I dont have a problem answering.

Of course, it is mostly what I think, and I don't have a lot of hard evidence that he was in fact a devout Muslim. If there were that kind of proof it would be all over the news. I did state it as an opinion, or at least corrected the lack when pressed. There are some indications he did identify with Muslims in childhood , as reported in the Times:

The Times reports that Obama was registered as a Muslim student all the time he was in school in Jakarta. Obama's sister, Miss Soetoro, denies her family was Muslim and says her relatives only went to the Mosque for “big communal events.”

the article makes the case that big communal events do indeed indentify your core faith. I go to a Baptist Church on Easter. i would not consider going to a Catholic Church, or a Synagogue, or any other religion's place of worship.

www.politicalgateway.com/main/columns/read.html?col=754

As far as being spiritual -- his explanation just comes off as very false to me, as very insincere. In my experiences, people who have a deep faith in a specific religion, such as Christianity and Jesus Christ, do endeavour to find a church to worship in; This is different than people who are ambiguously spiritual (no disrespect intended), ie who believe in God but don't have a hard affiliation and love of a given organization or viewpoint -- these people don't have a church to go to or a ceremony to perform. Any Christian I have ever heard of who is described as deeply spiritual either went to an organized church or did so at their homes in their own way. Worshipping as a physical act is central to Christianity. And ceremonies like Baptism -- baptisism has to be performed, or you are going to hell, IAW with mainstream Christianity. But Obama never said he was baptised as a child, which also doesnt jibe with deeply spiritual.

Most western religions dont allow you to get by merely by your works, so for Christianity, deeply spiritual doesnt jibe with never goes to church and doesnt organize worship at home. Christianity is a social religion that is instilled in your kids, either successfully or not.

Yet Obama claims his mother never went to church and never made him go. Yet she was a deeply spiritual Chrsitian. If they worshipped at home, he never mentioned it, which would have been important for him to do so to make his point. By his own words, it was only when it was pointed out to him that he saw the need to go (whether to further his charity work or strengthen his career) that he became a Christian Church goer. This doesnt sound like a deeply spiritual influence working on him, it sounds more like logic. And faith isn't logic.

Since he never had any exposure to Christian church (except maybe for Catholic School, which isnt the same as being Catholic or Christian) I don't see how the deeply spiritual Christian mother is anything but a device to endear him to the Christian Voters. If he claimed otherwise, perhaps say his mother was an atheist or indifferent to religion, then his political position would be much less than it is. He couldnt claim she was ambiguously spiritual, because that doesnt fly with Christians either. Therefore, I think, whether its true or not, he had to say she was deeply spiritual despite any evidence to the contrary. Again, this is all opinion based on his media persona. But is is an opinion with some real world backing to it, at least in my experiences.

Now, of course I can't say this is always the case. And of course I have no evidence to prove his mother was'nt a deeply spiritual christian yet never attended church, I am just basing my opinion on his words, and filtering that through his media presence, which is conflicting, again in my opinion.

[Rawedge Rim]

I don't know, after listening to Obama lately, I'm starting to feel a little bitter, and I have the urge to turn to religion and the second ammendment to assuage my bitterness

Just don't see myself pulling the handle for Obama.

(course I probably wouldn't have anyway)

[Plissken]

>sigh.<

All weekend, I've been telling my daughter how great it was that this "bitter" tempest-in-a-teacup was unworthy of even getting a mention, here in the 'Tank. "Even the most hardcore Righties we've got have been either too embarrassed or too un-swayed by constant reportage!" I said. "Even the Hilary supporters..." I said.

You know what? Folks who have been under severe economic stress for 25-30 years do get bitter. They do tend to become fearful of the outsider (We had a whole World War about it, you know). They do tend to turn to hopes of an afterlife, when they don't see any real good happening to them in this one. They do tend to look for something or someone to blame.

I ought to know. I've been there. I got over it.

So should everyone else.

[iQuestor]

FWIW Obamas bitterness comment didnt even phase me. I think they made way too much of it. I think they are just trying to do anything to damage his campaign.

[Avatar]

I think that is a given for practically anything that either candidate says.

In an election year, no way is anybody gonna let anybody else get away with anything. The most innocuous comment will be twisted. As for the not so innocuous ones...well...you can imagine.

(I wonder if this is a problem in American politics. Everyody spends so much effort trying to get people to hate the opposition, that when one person wins, everybody who didn't vote for them still hates them and is therefore incapable of being anything but partisan. (Generalising of course, but you get he idea I'm sure.) )

--A

[Cail]

Just saying, if McCain had made a comment about the bitter minorities in Mississippi he'd have been hanged (har, har) over it.

Point is, it's not that big of a deal, except that Obama has developed a pattern of this.

[aTOMiC]

(I wonder if this is a problem in American politics. Everyody spends so much effort trying to get people to hate the opposition, that when one person wins, everybody who didn't vote for them still hates them and is therefore incapable of being anything but partisan. (Generalising of course, but you get he idea I'm sure.) )

--A

I think that's pretty accurate.

[Plissken]

Just saying, if McCain had made a comment about the bitter minorities in Mississippi he'd have been hanged (har, har) over it.

Point is, it's not that big of a deal, except that Obama has developed a pattern of this.

What pattern? To say he could've worded it better? He could've. He could've said "turn to," instead of "cling to." When he said that, when it comes to politics, people get distracted from their own best interests by wedge issues, no one said a thing - because it's true, and because it was worded "correctly." (As a fellow hater of the constant demand to have things worded just so, so as not to offend, I'm sure you can see the irony here.)

As for what will get Mac "hanged," I'm betting it's his recent decision not to vote for increased Vet benefits - and saying that he can get away with it, because he's a vet.

[Cail]

The point being that the Dems have got a reputation of being hoity-toity elitists who presume to know what's best for everyone else. This is yet another example of that mindset.

Edit-And I hate the fact that Obama feels that he has the right to federally end concealed carry for everyone but the government. That's a scary precedent.

[Plissken]

I'm a Dem (and a Liberal one at that). Last year was the first time in my 40 years that I didn't qualify for the EIC -- and that's because I finally started making enough money turning a wrench to actually enter the Middle Class.

On the other hand, the much vaunted traits of the Liberal from the last election (Volvo Driving, Latte Drinking, Limousine Riding, etc., etc.) are statistically shown to be more likely to be the traits of 'Pubs.

But if you want to play to the stereotypes (whether they're earned or not) you've been fed by the media and a certain Ivy League grad who apparently can't conjugate a verb, be my guest. Of course, you'll have to ignore (or become an example of) Obama's main point to do it...

[Cail]

You're missing the point.

Right or wrong, people view the Dems as elitist. The Dems have pretty much got the market cornered in the, "we know what's best for you" department.

Now, we can debate whether or not the elitist label is deserved or not, but that's not the issue. The issue is that the vast majority of voters believe it, and the candidates have done zilch to dispel it.

[Plissken]

Fair enough. How can Dems dispel the myth that they're elitist? A Populist platform won't to it, that much is clear. Lord knows, Hil can't do it by sipping on a shot in a bar (anyone else embarrassed for her?), and Obama's not going to be allowed to use anything less than perfectly PC speech patterns...

[Cail]

Sipping a shot of Crown.....Now if she'd slammed a shot of Jim Beam, I would have stood up and applauded.

Both Hil and Obama have done this to themselves. I fear that these "gaffes" are nothing more than insights to their character.

[storm]

Fair enough. How can Dems dispel the myth that they're elitist? A Populist platform won't to it, that much is clear. Lord knows, Hil can't do it by sipping on a shot in a bar (anyone else embarrassed for her?), and Obama's not going to be allowed to use anything less than perfectly PC speech patterns...

I would say they can dispel that they are elitist the same way that the republicans could...George Bush didn't exactly do much for the claim that conservatives are for the people.

...whether its the liberal stance of "we know what's best for you" or the conservative stance of "rich people make the world go round so stop questioning us"...people are fed up with the BS, they want to make their own decisions, have their privacy respected, basically the stuff that is outlined in the constitution. Barack and Hillary are as capable of understanding small town america as Bush is; all are wealthy, have never struggled, do not represent the majority of americans. I honestly do not believe the political structure as it is currently set up can bring about a candidate who is for the people, even if he/she doesn't necessarily agree with all the people.

edit: Cail, sipping beam is a shooting offense, had she of slammed a shot of it i may have applauded.

[danlo]

No, you can't call any oilmen in Houston elitist or their buddies from Blackwater, but you can call someone who just paid off his student loans that. It's not what's said that means that much, it's the way the media makes up some ridiculous story to skewer whatever was said: now that's entertainment!

[Avatar]

Hey, that reminds me, Blackwater got their contract renewed...but that's a topic for a different thread.

Interesting posts guys.

--A

[Rawedge Rim]

I hope Obama didn't mean his comment to come off like it did, yet to many of us average blue collar types, it came off something like

"When the times get tough, the blue collar types become more Redneck like, and become religiously intolerant, cling to outdated notions like gunownership (like most rednecks), blame those of color for thier problems, etc."

Actually, what I've seen down in "blue-collarville" is that most people, rightly or wrongly, blame the government.