Kevin's Watch

tonyz wrote:It's really getting like that here; I almost don't care what happens to Linden and Covenant or anyone else in the story any longer.

That's really the point isn't it. In pursuing his literary dream to it's fulfilment, Donaldson has left many of us - very many of us it would seem - behind, to the point where we no longer care, where it no longer matters.

To illustrate my point can I suggest that any who are interested go to their copy of AATE and actually read the 'What Has Gone Before' section. On reading the synopsis of series one and two, for me the effect was one of Oh My God! From this - to this! It seriously drove home how much I personally have lost, in not being able to reach those peaks of involvement again. To, for a few short hours, no longer be me - to actually BE TC, so deep was my reading experience of the Chrons.

This is undoubtedly the best section of the book in my view - not because it's just about the 'old Chrons', but because it is Donaldson writing about the previous Chrons in the light of the new ones. This is very instructive because it gives a window into his changing perspective of his previous works and how they must be 'skewed' in thier viewing in order that they sit alongside the final Chrons. It occurs to me that a careful reading of all the 'What has gone before's in order might be an exercise that would yeild more of interest than at first might be imagined.

peter wrote:

tonyz wrote:It's really getting like that here; I almost don't care what happens to Linden and Covenant or anyone else in the story any longer.

That's really the point isn't it. In pursuing his literary dream to it's fulfilment, Donaldson has left many of us - very many of us it would seem - behind, to the point where we no longer care, where it no longer matters.

To illustrate my point can I suggest that any who are interested go to their copy of AATE and actually read the 'What Has Gone Before' section. On reading the synopsis of series one and two, for me the effect was one of Oh My God! From this - to this! It seriously drove home how much I personally have lost, in not being able to reach those peaks of involvement again. To, for a few short hours, no longer be me - to actually BE TC, so deep was my reading experience of the Chrons.

This is undoubtedly the best section of the book in my view - not because it's just about the 'old Chrons', but because it is Donaldson writing about the previous Chrons in the light of the new ones.

I'm glad you found something to like about AATE, even if not the story itself. I had to read the following part of your comment a few time in order to get it:

To, for a few short hours, no longer be me - to actually BE TC, so deep was my reading experience of the Chrons.

In order to understand this, it's necessary to work out the enormous split infinitive at the beginning of that sentence, to glean the essentials of its meaning in terms of the main infinitive "to be." You seem to be saying that your enjoyment in the former Chrons lay in its escapist leanings. Male readers (perhaps only certain ones) can identify with TC and thereby enter the character's mind and "be" that character for a few hours at a time. This would not be as possible for most if the rape scene at the very beginning of it all was not so ambiguous, if one could not, in the secret depths of one's heart, identify with those intense male sex drives and thus find room to forgive. And it would not be possible if a reader did not have some form of inner Despiser himself. By the time the third book rolls around, we might be thinking, "Come on, give the poor guy a break, it was over 40 years ago in Land's time!" And yet Triock is still upset, and Lena is still waiting for her hero to come back, and nobody wants to just let the matter drop. In the final analysis, Covenant wins whether or not he succeeds against the Despiser, both inner and outer, because the leper's nightmare/delusion has finally ended once and for all. In the end, Covenant's character evolves to the level of true anti-hero.

Based one what you wrote, I'll go back and take another look at the "What Has Gone Before" section of AATE.

Damn WOTWE, that's a serious bit of Eng. Lang. tuition - I almost feel I should send you a cheque for it, (only kidding - yes, it was a horrendously 'clunky' bit of writing I agree; put it down to jet lag please!).
In retrospect the idea I was trying to get across was more one of total absorbtion in a story to the point of exclusion of all else - and yes, to a degree, the identification with the protagonists (both TC and Linden) in a way that is qualitatively different from the usual reading experience. (Yes, TC's act was brutal in the extreme, as much for it's despoilation of Lena's trust, innocence and generosity of spirit as for her physical body - but somehow, shocked though I was, I never hated Covenant for it - even at the time. Perhaps I would if I read the Chrons for the first time now - who knows.)
Anyway thanks for going back to the 'What has gone before' section. I hope it prooves worthwhile

peter wrote:Damn WOTWE, that's a serious bit of Eng. Lang. tuition - I almost feel I should send you a cheque for it, (only kidding - yes, it was a horrendously 'clunky' bit of writing I agree; put it down to jet lag please!).

I meant to give you props, actually; but I got caught up in the rest of my comment. Such a massive split infinitive actually shows that you have a hidden, and potentially money-making, talent for writing.

peter wrote:In retrospect the idea I was trying to get across was more one of total absorbtion in a story to the point of exclusion of all else - and yes, to a degree, the identification with the protagonists (both TC and Linden) in a way that is qualitatively different from the usual reading experience. (Yes, TC's act was brutal in the extreme, as much for it's despoilation of Lena's trust, innocence and generosity of spirit as for her physical body - but somehow, shocked though I was, I never hated Covenant for it - even at the time. Perhaps I would if I read the Chrons for the first time now - who knows.)
Anyway thanks for going back to the 'What has gone before' section. I hope it prooves worthwhile

It's been so long since my first reading that I no longer remember how I reacted to the rape scene. I was probably shocked as well. It was kind of gross, too, being a rather graphically portrayed virgin rape. My youthful sensibilities were not accustomed to such. I may have been shocked even more by the fact that someone allowed this to get published in a form designed to attract young fantasy readers. There was this adult theme wrapped in an almost cartoonish package, i.e., the Darrell Sweet cover. Such content wasn't what I bargained for when I spent my last $2.95 on the book.

I personally know one person, female, who quit reading at the rape scene. I must say, that was one case where I need not worry about getting a book back that I lent out.

Donaldson wasn't through shocking us yet with Lena. Recall that the rape scene was the last we really saw of her for two more books. But didn't we all assume she always hated Covenant after that? Then, Donaldson tossed out another emotionally wrenching plot twist by revealing that Lena was still in love with Covenant, and had preserved herself for over 40 years. One wonders, what is the power that preserves anyway, if not love?

Anybody who is left unaffected by this won't be affected by anything.

Wow - first post on the forum - having 'lurked' and read things for a number of years this thread and progress on the book so far caused me to actually write something!

I have been a SRD fan for 25 years. It was the first fantasy series i read and actually got me into the whole genre. I may be unusual in having read TCTC before any Tolkien - when i did read LOTR i was comparing that to the Chronicles instead of the other way about.

The GAP series I rate as some of the best stuff i ever read and the First Chronicles is what i measure anything else i read against!

I have only just started reading AATE (now at page 188). I was sooo frustrated at the opening inactivity that i thought i would risk any spoilers to see if i was the only one in the same boat - and take some solace from the fact that i am not.

I tend to focus more on the story and how it makes me feel than actually thinking about it and themes - i like a good bit of escapism i guess. I really dont think that much about books after i have read them - i like the 'journey' of the experience of reading it.

I love the depth and emotion that SRD puts into everything but i am tending with those that think that the latest series has just gone that bit too far. I realise there are those with an opposite view - but without variety where would we be.

I guess what i am saying is that, so far, i dont feel particularly taken anywhere or engaged by the story and that i am finding the sheer amount of internal monologue, to be brutal about it, boring. i was willing to put up with an amount of this this for the first two of the series as there had to be an amount of rebuilding and plot setting, but its now starting to get me down as the pace of story development doesnt look like getting any faster!

I cant wait to get to the 'change' to perspective from Covenant as opposed to Linden, i think someone posted earlier that it wasnt until this happened that they realised that that was what was different about the series.

At the moment i am starting to worry that SRD is going the way of Raymond E Feist and Robert Jordan in just trying to keep a series going on too long. HOPEFULLY once the LC is complete I will be able to look back and eat these words - we will see!

Mc

I suppose Donaldson could always just sell out like Piers Anthony did back in the 1970s.

*shrug* What's too long? It all depends on one's perspective. The author will take as much time to tell the story as he or she feels must be taken. However, there will always (on the other spectrum) be readers that think classics like LotR and Hyperion could be told within a couple hundred pages. I prefer the middle ground, in that if I like what an author's trying to do, I'll read him. And I reeeeally like what Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chronicles. Personal opinion, of course

Orlion wrote:*shrug* What's too long? It all depends on one's perspective. The author will take as much time to tell the story as he or she feels must be taken. However, there will always (on the other spectrum) be readers that think classics like LotR and Hyperion could be told within a couple hundred pages. I prefer the middle ground, in that if I like what an author's trying to do, I'll read him. And I reeeeally like what Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chronicles. Personal opinion, of course

Yes it is, but what is Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chrons?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:*shrug* What's too long? It all depends on one's perspective. The author will take as much time to tell the story as he or she feels must be taken. However, there will always (on the other spectrum) be readers that think classics like LotR and Hyperion could be told within a couple hundred pages. I prefer the middle ground, in that if I like what an author's trying to do, I'll read him. And I reeeeally like what Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chronicles. Personal opinion, of course

Yes it is, but what is Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chrons?

Give us a glimpse of transcendental things I'll have to find the Edgar Allen Poe quote he used to that effect...

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:*shrug* What's too long? It all depends on one's perspective. The author will take as much time to tell the story as he or she feels must be taken. However, there will always (on the other spectrum) be readers that think classics like LotR and Hyperion could be told within a couple hundred pages. I prefer the middle ground, in that if I like what an author's trying to do, I'll read him. And I reeeeally like what Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chronicles. Personal opinion, of course

Yes it is, but what is Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chrons?

Give us a glimpse of transcendental things I'll have to find the Edgar Allen Poe quote he used to that effect...

“Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night.”

Orlion wrote:*shrug* What's too long? It all depends on one's perspective. The author will take as much time to tell the story as he or she feels must be taken. However, there will always (on the other spectrum) be readers that think classics like LotR and Hyperion could be told within a couple hundred pages.

I can't remember if it was Stephen King or Donaldson who said that after his first read of LOTR, he thought it was too long. And then after a couple rereads he thought it was too short. No wait ... I think it was Asimov. (It's been a few decades since I read the quote.)

I prefer the middle ground, in that if I like what an author's trying to do, I'll read him. And I reeeeally like what Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chronicles. Personal opinion, of course

That's the key point here. If I'm lovin' something, I don't mind spending a good deal of time appreciating it. The longer, the better. I like epic stories, epic songs, and epic beers that take me two hours to finish. The problem with the length only arises if there is too much repetition, pacing problems, muddled or myopic focus, etc.

I love what Donaldson is trying to do. I have always loved his stories for the richness of his character development. The fact that he dives so deep into their psyches is a unique literary experience. But at some point it can become too much. I think the fact that so many fans are having this reaction this time around is evidence that Donaldson is pushing those boundaries, at least. Got to respect him for that, even if I'm on the wrong side of that boundary.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Yes it is, but what is Donaldson is trying to do with the Last Chrons?

Give us a glimpse of transcendental things I'll have to find the Edgar Allen Poe quote he used to that effect...

“Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night.”

I believe that's the one! It continues with "In their grey visions they obtain glimpses of eternity."

Zarathustra wrote: I love what Donaldson is trying to do.

Me too. It's really quite ambitious literature.

But then there's the other side, all the fantasy action and Lord-Foul-butt-kicking that has to take place.

I read an interesting essay about writing by Stephen King the other day that made me think of AATE and its problems. Unfortunately the esay is in swedish so i cant directly quote, but he writes that his take on writing has always been that action always has to have precedence over character description, themes and the emotional feel of the story. That those things amount to nothing if the action part is boring. And that a lack in these later regards can be pardoned if the action gets a grip on you. He also tells an anecdote about a story by Edgar Rice Borroughs where the protagonist on page one finds a bottle with a message from the author, promissing that once the reader has turned the first page, he will have forgotten about the bottle.

I guess that in AATE (and for me the whole of the last chrons) i never get to forget that message in the bottle. The writing is too much about hammering home the theme and character of the protagonists, and the action raraley sucks me in and makes me stop wondering (and worrying) about the writers intentions and capability to take it home.

Well I have got to page 400 and so far this is a very disappointing book.
I would ask if anyone really knows what is going on.

200 pages of TC getting brought out from the Arch, 200 pages of She WHo Must Not Be Named and some really awful writing.

this is a shockingly bad book.

Atrium wrote:he writes that his take on writing has always been that action always has to have precedence over character description, themes and the emotional feel of the story. That those things amount to nothing if the action part is boring. And that a lack in these later regards can be pardoned if the action gets a grip on you.

I fundamentally disagree with this.

The experience of reading a book is all about you, as a reader, feeling something. Whatever it is that establishes an emotional connection (whether it be the characterization, the thrill, the plot, or anything else) is the most important part.

Can poor character and thematic development be forgiven for good action? Absolutely, if the action is what creates an emotional link with the reader. But in that case, the action itself is what gives the story it's "emotional feel."

Donaldson excels at emotional characterization, but he isn't very good at writing action sequences. In AATE, he's playing to his strengths.

The thing is, King can do both, even though he's got some spectacular misfires. Character development is crucial to a story, but there's got to be something going on at the same time.

Three books into these Last Chronicles, and we've gotten more time travel than Star Trek, along with a handful of other fantasy tropes, and literally hundreds of pages of Linden whining.

But what we don't have is memorable characters. Donaldson has not only failed to progress the story, he's failed to flesh out the rich environment that he created in the first two Chronicles.

RotE and FR were disappointing, AATE is abysmally bad.

Cail wrote:The thing is, King can do both, even though he's got some spectacular misfires. Character development is crucial to a story, but there's got to be something going on at the same time.

Three books into these Last Chronicles, and we've gotten more time travel than Star Trek, along with a handful of other fantasy tropes, and literally hundreds of pages of Linden whining.

But what we don't have is memorable characters. Donaldson has not only failed to progress the story, he's failed to flesh out the rich environment that he created in the first two Chronicles.

RotE and FR were disappointing, AATE is abysmally bad.

I dislike debating the characterization - everybody dies anyway, so who cares about that? But what I want to know is how you can say the story hasn't progressed.

Let me rephrase that, the story's progressed like a Xanth novel, only much, much slower.

Cail wrote:Let me rephrase that, the story's progressed like a Xanth novel, only much, much slower.

Progressed like a Xanth novel? Is that similar to "run like a Welshman"?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S7_UAs7dAE
(Click on the video when it reaches the 4 second mark.)