Kevin's Watch

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:Whether or not it's, "low confidence" is immaterial. It's being discussed at the highest levels of our government which means that it's not misinformation - evidence is developing and people are looking into it.

Correct. But it's not "becoming consensus", which is what you are stating like it's a fact. Nor has anyone become "deplatformed", which is what you also stated.

wayfriend wrote:I fail to see why those tactics are allowed but other more honest ones should not be.

Which tactics that are not allowed in the Current Events thread do you think should be?

+JMJ+

wayfriend wrote:… Nor has anyone become "deplatformed" …

[…]

Word on the street is that Elites in charge of certain web fora dedicated to specific fantasy-fiction authors have disappeared entire subfora out of hatred for Conservative Principles. Pass it on.

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

wayfriend wrote:… Nor has anyone become "deplatformed" …

[…]

Word on the street is that Elites in charge of certain web fora dedicated to specific fantasy-fiction authors have disappeared entire subfora out of hatred for Conservative Principles. Pass it on.

-jay

lol Wos ...

Fist you are absolutely right this isn't a debate club but we are according to all a discussion board ... and when it comes to current events discussions many treat it like a debate club

So basic discussion interactions usually and not unreasonably places the onus of proving a point on the one making the point.

Just say'n

Skyweir wrote:lol Wos ...

Fist you are absolutely right this isn't a debate club but we are according to all a discussion board ... and when it comes to current events discussions many treat it like a debate club

So basic discussion interactions usually and not unreasonably places the onus of proving a point on the one making the point.

Just say'n

I’ve always thought those making the point bear the burden of proof. Maybe it’s just the attorney in me.

Yes, if you want to be taken seriously. I'm just saying it's not a requirement for participating in the Current Events thread.

In its own way I believe that the Tank was a pretty important social document. (And that applies in many ways to the whole site.)

The interactions within it on various topics were, despite all of the sometimes intemperate behaviour (which I never had any problem with really - after all the clue was in the name.....a place where sharks swim), actually really good at shining a light into the actual thinking of a group of disparate individuals - getting into the nooks and crannies of their thought - over a range of topics.

It was unique in a way. I've never found it replicated anywhere else on the internet, and believe me I've tried. And what made it in some ways the more interesting was that this was a group bound together by a love of a completely different thing - a series of books - that one might have expected (in some way) to reflect a similarity of character elsewhere.......

I'm going to (just as an example, and because I know it) refer to the particular thread I (effectively) ran on the brexit debate in the UK. You would have been hard pressed - you would be now - to find in any single other place, a dissection of every tiny move, every swing this way and that, on a day by day basis, drawn from just about every media source going - every event and trip up, every interjection from any source that suddenly pitched the boat a different way, over the months of the referendum campaign.

This kind of thing - and it was replicated in a hundred other threads in the tank, mirroring the deep thinking of ordinary people in ordinary places on the topics that effect them on a daily basis - will be almost impossible for future researchers into history, changing mental attitudes, psychology, to find anywhere. (Or at least as clearly and comprehensively presented as they were here.)


For this reason I think it was important and its scrubbing out was an act of vandalism.

But that's just my thinking and I respect that this is not a democracy. The 'owner' of the site has the saying of what goes on and we have to respect that or get the **** out of Dodge and make a site of our own.

I suspect the biggest reason you never had a problem was that you didn't much post about US politics.

While I would never have deleted it myself, (maybe locked it at most) and while I do sorta miss it, I suspect Jay made the right choice in the long run. And something else will arise before tooo long.

--A

Avatar wrote:I suspect the biggest reason you never had a problem was that you didn't much post about US politics.
--A

The Tank sadly wasn’t a great reflection of the community that is the Watch and certainly not the Watch jay envisioned.

And the dude that possesses the proprietary rights over the Watch can do whatever he considers best for his site.

As one who initiated the Think Tank and its name aamof lol 😂 I’m sad the Tank has gone but it lost a lot of its Watchiness over the years and became arguably more toxic than annyone expected.

The toxicity essentially set Watcher against Watcher in the worst possible way.

And perhaps unavoidably is a reflection in microcosm of the polar divide that exists in western societal politics.

It’s a pity we were unable to retain our Watchiness (respect and regard for each other as fellow Watchers) in the Tank ~ and sadly it’s an indictment against us and our incapabilities.

In many ways the Watch is a better place for the absence of the adversarial toxicity that benefited no one ~ as it served to raise blood pressures of an ageing community 😉 who’s health is invariably affected by such stressors and unproductive engagements.

I consider myself to be a fairly reasonable, fairly rational, fairly intelligent individual. I hold a key leadership role as a Software Development Manager at Amazon. I have two pretty amazing kids, and I have a team that thinks highly of me as a leader.

I can communicate intelligently, write poetry, prose, and music, and can formulate well articulated arguments. At work, I am very hard to argue against because of these facts; I am what Amazon refers to as a "Bar Raiser" for the company's writing culture.

With that as my "CV" if you will, the Think Tank taught me one thing, and that is people in general when not face to face with the people they are talking with lose empathy, civility, and respect. The level of troll-like behavior and lack of basic human kindness is what led me to stop coming to the Watch at all. The election of Trump as president only reinforced the fact that we as a society have become uninformed, entrenched, and fragmented as a people. No one is willing to listen; everyone wants to be the one who is right rather than arrive at a conclusion that is right; science and critical thinking are ignored in favor of dogma or propaganda. The Tank just happened to be the first place I was exposed to such unenlightened vitriol. Looking back on it, I can see how I could be considered to have engaged it in myself; it is too easy to let emotions get the best of us.

As such, I find no value in coming to a place where I'd love to discuss art and music and writing and have to deal with that level of infighting amongst the participants. Much in the same way, I no longer associate with much of my family who have allowed the same lack of empathy, civility, and respect to engulf their behavior in person when those conversations happen. I'm even willing to admit that maybe I've become just as entrenched as the ones I claim are behaving badly. But, I will say that I don't engage in those conversations at all to ensure I don't behave that way. And I try to teach my children that every story has three sides: yours, theirs, and the truth, so that they do not also grow up uninformed.

I'm happy to see that this place, with its new tech, might have a resurgence; I'm even willing to participate again, as I've rediscovered my love of writing music over the last three years, and have started reading Donaldson again. But if that leads us to a place where all of us looking to enjoy some simple conversation are overrun by something like the Tank, at least as it was before, I'll also happily reconsider returning.

It's up to all of us what kind of community we want to be. It's up to all of us to decide how are going to treat each other. If political discourse can happen here in a civil manner, that would be an amazing indicator of our maturity. Maybe that means it happens in the normal course of other threads and topics.

I'm not sure where I am going with this as I wrap this up, other than to say, that if the need for political conversation *in this forum* outweighs our need to treat each others as colleagues or comrades or even friends, we have our priorities wrong. In this forum anyway.

rdhopeca wrote: ↑
I'm not sure where I am going with this as I wrap this up, other than to say, that if the need for political conversation *in this forum* outweighs our need to treat each others as colleagues or comrades or even friends, we have our priorities wrong. In this forum anyway.

Agreed, but its not so much political discussion per se but rather the "need to be right" in those discussions. Funny enough if you put us all in the same room. We would most likely get along fabulously. We just need to remind ourselves of that.

Nice to see you around rdhopeca. Be good to see you joining in again. Welcome back.

--A

I think it's very difficult to have conversations about too many things that don't touch on Tank topics. Discussing those things is just a natural part of human interaction. It's not entirely unavoidable, but it's difficult.

Having a specific spot for those types of discussions means a discussion elsewhere that turns into that type can be moved, so that those who don't want to be involved in that tangent don't have to be. They can continue the original conversation free of the politics. So a Tank serves a useful purpose.

Of course, how we treat each other in there is the key. Tank II will have some basic rules that will ensure civil behavior. We've been testing it out in the Close, and it's been going pretty well. The tools we have available to us, which we have not been using in the Close, will make it even better. No worries about the vitriol. Have no fear, rdhopeca!

I wish you luck in your battle against entropy If and when the Tank resurfaces, I'll make a choice. Until then, I'm going to keep poking my head elsewhere in here and find some like-minded minds to engage with.

It’s great to have you here!!

This is and always has been an awesome community ~ and it’s the amazing Watchers that make it the board it is.

We’ve lost some of the very best of us & hopefully with the new board those that can, will return.

Times & seasons and all that cuz it’s got to be right for peeps.

Avatar wrote: ↑I suspect Jay made the right choice in the long run.

Darn tootin'!

-jay

rdhopeca wrote: ↑ I'm not sure where I am going with this as I wrap this up, other than to say, that if the need for political conversation *in this forum* outweighs our need to treat each others as colleagues or comrades or even friends, we have our priorities wrong. In this forum anyway.

Great post!

-jay

Absolutely!

Fortunately, problem solved.