Kevin's Watch

I'm a subjectivist myself.

--A

Avatar wrote:I'm a subjectivist myself.

--A

As am I, though perhaps of a slightly different stripe .

Yes. But the universe is objectively real. And it has objective properties.

Fist and Faith wrote:Yes. But the universe is objectively real. And it has objective properties.

Indeed. Whether those properties can be objectively accessed, or reality objectively known, is where the divide between subjectivism and objectivism occurs.

Whether they're known or not is one thing. But they exist. The speed of sound and the strength of gravity weren't always known. And gravity was once assumed to behave other than it does. (Why the hell it took so long for anyone to notice that objects of different weight fall at the same rate is beyond me!!) But sound and gravity work the way they work. And nobody eats plutonium and lives.

So much is factual and objective. Data which has been collected, however, by an interplay of subjectivities. Existence may be independent of individual subjectivity, but knowledge is not.

Avatar wrote:Does the Close only exist when Rus is on the Watch?

Gods people. This used to be such a busy forum. Once upon a time. What happened?

Discus.

--A

Hi guys!

Does this mean I'll finally get a Watchie for notable contributor to the Close (if you ever have Watchies again)?

Lina, I'm not sure we disagree on Orthodoxy primarily because I would guess that you're not familiar with Orthodoxy (and might be wrong on that guess). It has been very much under the radar in American/English history until very very recently. I suspect I have an advantage in degrees of familiarity with the range of western Christianity over most here; particularly vis-a-vis Eastern Christianity. But certainly I'd say we agree on some really really important things!

BTW, am taking prayers for my younger daughter Stephanie - high temps, convulsions, intensive care, big scares; it's been a rough week. I'm totally ecumenical in accepting prayers from one and all. God hears everyone.

Sorry to hear about your daughter, rus.

Rus,

I hope your daughter heals very quickly. She's in my prayers.

Not praying, but sending some compassionate energy your duaghter's way, Rus .

Oh man! I'm so sorry, rus! I'll be thinking of Stephanie.

Sending healing light and thoughts east...

Sorry to hear about your kid Rus. I hope everything turns out ok.

--A

rusmeister wrote:BTW, am taking prayers for my younger daughter Stephanie - high temps, convulsions, intensive care, big scares; it's been a rough week. I'm totally ecumenical in accepting prayers from one and all. God hears everyone.

My prayers seem feeble lately, but I'm praying for you guys... and how old is Stephanie?

rusmeister wrote:Lina, I'm not sure we disagree on Orthodoxy primarily because I would guess that you're not familiar with Orthodoxy (and might be wrong on that guess). It has been very much under the radar in American/English history until very very recently.

Oh, pffft! Yeah, you got me there!

rusmeister wrote:I suspect I have an advantage in degrees of familiarity with the range of western Christianity over most here; particularly vis-a-vis Eastern Christianity.

I didn't know what the extent of your familiarity with western Christianty/churches was... you referenced it once, but I bet that was only a piece of the story.

rusmeister wrote:But certainly I'd say we agree on some really really important things!

=)

Also, I think we get to celebrate Easter on the same day this year... April 24th, am I right?! "And the bond of fellowship is increased!" Par-tay!

Cambo wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Yes. But the universe is objectively real. And it has objective properties.

Indeed. Whether those properties can be objectively accessed, or reality objectively known, is where the divide between subjectivism and objectivism occurs.

Are you saying that could put Fist on the subjectivism side of things, based on his degree of certainty as to whether these properties can be objectively discerned? Crazy semantics! And.. man... depending on "extent to which one must believe reality can be reliably objectively discerned" to hold to objectivism ...a really strong form of that could put -ME- in the "subjectivism box."

Even if you are an objectivist*, Fist, I'd still say that yours is a weak form of objectivism compared to that of, say, Malik/Zarathustra.

* We're just gonna argue about what category you fall into, belief-wise, for a bit, if you don't mind, Fist.

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

rusmeister wrote:BTW, am taking prayers for my younger daughter Stephanie - high temps, convulsions, intensive care, big scares; it's been a rough week. I'm totally ecumenical in accepting prayers from one and all. God hears everyone.

My prayers seem feeble lately, but I'm praying for you guys... and how old is Stephanie?

She'll be two on... Pascha!!!! (We don't say "Easter", which is a term of purely English origin)

My prayers are also feeble things. Good thing the Lord's got excellent reception!

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

rusmeister wrote:Lina, I'm not sure we disagree on Orthodoxy primarily because I would guess that you're not familiar with Orthodoxy (and might be wrong on that guess). It has been very much under the radar in American/English history until very very recently.

Oh, pffft! Yeah, you got me there!

My apologies if that sounded snooty! Unintended! I only meant to say that it is a huge part of Christianity that is mostly unknown in the West, yet it has an unbroken Tradition - despite what happened to Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople and Jerusalem over the centuries. I think most people take us as some kind of 'left-wing Catholics'. Certainly the media encourage that view.

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

rusmeister wrote:I suspect I have an advantage in degrees of familiarity with the range of western Christianity over most here; particularly vis-a-vis Eastern Christianity.

I didn't know what the extent of your familiarity with western Christianty/churches was... you referenced it once, but I bet that was only a piece of the story.

Raised solid northern fundamental Baptist. I did not move from faith to faith, but my intimates include Presbyterians, Reformed, and Methodist, to name a few. The real dividing line, I think, is Sola Scriptura.

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

rusmeister wrote:But certainly I'd say we agree on some really really important things!

=)

Also, I think we get to celebrate Easter on the same day this year... April 24th, am I right?! "And the bond of fellowship is increased!" Par-tay!

You know, I could go for an inter-Christian thread on the relative importance of Easter vs Christmas. +The thing I found most interesting on reflection was how much emphasis we place on Christmas and how little on Easter, when the latter is surely at least as important, if not more important, than the former. In Orthodoxy, Pascha is the biggest day of the year. And yes, it IS April 24th this year. In fact, until Pentecost(50 days - who knew?), we greet others saying "Christ is risen!" and the response is "Indeed He is risen!" So if you know the right response you're in the Club!

Update: Stephanie is doing better, it seems today. She's walking and babbling toddler talk. In her case, mommy speaks Russian and daddy speaks English, so it gets a little mixed...

Rus,

Pascha and Easter fell together last year too. Isn't it unusual to have coenciding celebrations two years running?

SerScot wrote:Rus,

Pascha and Easter fell together last year too. Isn't it unusual to have coenciding celebrations two years running?

I don't believe that it's that unusual. My fuzzy understanding is that it happens quite often.

I got it second-hand, but a Russian Pushkin scholar (Pushkin is considered by Russians to be their greatest writer, decidedly eclipsing Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky and others) named Nepomnyaschy* suggested a delineation of eastern and western cultures into Paschal and Christmas cultures respectively, with broad effects on worldview based on the nature of the holiday held in the highest regard. I thought it really spot-on, as the Brits say.

*

Graduated from the philological department of Moscow State University, the department of classical philology (1957). In 1963-1992 yr. he worked as editor in the journal “Literary Questions”, since 1992. the senior scientific member of the Institute of World Literature RAN [Russian Academy of Science]. Doctor of Philological Sciences.

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

Cambo wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Yes. But the universe is objectively real. And it has objective properties.

Indeed. Whether those properties can be objectively accessed, or reality objectively known, is where the divide between subjectivism and objectivism occurs.

Are you saying that could put Fist on the subjectivism side of things, based on his degree of certainty as to whether these properties can be objectively discerned? Crazy semantics! And.. man... depending on "extent to which one must believe reality can be reliably objectively discerned" to hold to objectivism ...a really strong form of that could put -ME- in the "subjectivism box."

Even if you are an objectivist*, Fist, I'd still say that yours is a weak form of objectivism compared to that of, say, Malik/Zarathustra.

* We're just gonna argue about what category you fall into, belief-wise, for a bit, if you don't mind, Fist.

Well, you'll have to talk slow. I don't know much about official terms. The only Objectivism I know about is Ayn Rand. (Most of which I agree with, even if she seems to have been remarkably screwed up where love is concerned. )

Cambo, there is a great deal that can be objectively known. The speed of sound, strength of gravity, and affect of plutonium on the human body aren't remotely the only examples. That there are many aspects of reality that we have not nailed down precisely (and that there are likely many other aspects of reality whose existence we have no inkling of yet) is not reason to believe there are not many things that can be known in precise detail. It is not a subjective opinion that Rate x Time = Distance. Or that the moon rotates around the earth in a certain way, at a certain speed. Or a billion other things.

rusmeister wrote:You know, I could go for an inter-Christian thread on the relative importance of Easter vs Christmas. +The thing I found most interesting on reflection was how much emphasis we place on Christmas and how little on Easter, when the latter is surely at least as important, if not more important, than the former. In Orthodoxy, Pascha is the biggest day of the year. And yes, it IS April 24th this year. In fact, until Pentecost(50 days - who knew?), we greet others saying "Christ is risen!" and the response is "Indeed He is risen!" So if you know the right response you're in the Club!

I posted relatively recently that it seems odd to me that Good Friday isn't the biggest day. That's when Jesus died, thus making it possible for us to be saved. Yes? That's the most important thing, isn't it? Easter is just the proof that Jesus was, indeed, one who could do this for us. But if he hadn't risen, any who believed his story and had faith could still be saved, right? Christmas... Yeah, it's important. He couldn't have done what he did for us if he hadn't been born, eh? But still, it's not what makes salvation possible.

rusmeister wrote:Update: Stephanie is doing better, it seems today. She's walking and babbling toddler talk. In her case, mommy speaks Russian and daddy speaks English, so it gets a little mixed...

Great news!!!!!!!!!!! And I wish my kids were growing up multi-lingual.