No offense, but have you read The Bible?
"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
"Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."
Now, I'll also grant this....
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
And sure, Jesus makes it clear that you love Him most, but the point remains: love everyone.
"Nonsense" about Christianity
Moderator: Fist and Faith
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Cail, I've read the bible more than most. (No offense taken) Is that the gist of what you call 'the message'? First of all, it seems sporadic, though I like what it says.
If that's it, I'll sleep on it and add a few things later to what many can consider 'the message'.Using the words of the same fellow.
If that's it, I'll sleep on it and add a few things later to what many can consider 'the message'.Using the words of the same fellow.
That's it. You may add whatever you like, but that doesn't change what The Message is. You may interpret what you like, but that doesn't change what The Message is.
It's very easy to stand on the outside and criticize, but it comes across as (as the title of the thread says) "nonsense". Especially when you have a group of Christians here who are telling you that your position is incorrect. Sort of like, "well, I'm not a Christian, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.." sort of thing.
Let me save you the trouble of posting whatever you're going to post. In my faith, and in my church (Catholic, and I've been to several), the message is one of love. That's it. I've never heard a homily about hatred or fear. I've never had a Priest tell me that someone is "less than" us.
Do some churches who call themselves Christian espouse those beliefs? Sure they do. But that doesn't make them Christian.
It's very easy to stand on the outside and criticize, but it comes across as (as the title of the thread says) "nonsense". Especially when you have a group of Christians here who are telling you that your position is incorrect. Sort of like, "well, I'm not a Christian, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.." sort of thing.
Let me save you the trouble of posting whatever you're going to post. In my faith, and in my church (Catholic, and I've been to several), the message is one of love. That's it. I've never heard a homily about hatred or fear. I've never had a Priest tell me that someone is "less than" us.
Do some churches who call themselves Christian espouse those beliefs? Sure they do. But that doesn't make them Christian.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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iQuestor
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 12:20 am
- Location: South of Disorder
My big problem with religion in general isn't the message. Catholics, Christians and other western religions I am familiar with all have wonderful messages like Cail points out. Love each other. Treat others fairly. Forgive. Help each other. Devote your life to a higher purpose.Cail wrote:No offense, but have you read The Bible?
"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
"Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."
Now, I'll also grant this....
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
And sure, Jesus makes it clear that you love Him most, but the point remains: love everyone.
Its us humans who then interpret and filter the message through our own internal biases and judgements that create the nonsense. We bend it to advocate our beleifs and justify our actions. Oh, its not conscious most of the time. And many people who are going against the foundation of their faith find a way to internally justify their actions.
If people were able to truly follow and live the message of mainstream christianity , catholicism or islam, etc, the world would be a much better place. but most cannot.
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Wow.Cail wrote:That's it. You may add whatever you like, but that doesn't change what The Message is. You may interpret what you like, but that doesn't change what The Message is.
It's very easy to stand on the outside and criticize, but it comes across as (as the title of the thread says) "nonsense". Especially when you have a group of Christians here who are telling you that your position is incorrect. Sort of like, "well, I'm not a Christian, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.." sort of thing.
Let me save you the trouble of posting whatever you're going to post. In my faith, and in my church (Catholic, and I've been to several), the message is one of love. That's it. I've never heard a homily about hatred or fear. I've never had a Priest tell me that someone is "less than" us.
Do some churches who call themselves Christian espouse those beliefs? Sure they do. But that doesn't make them Christian.
I can add what I like, (We are talking about Jesus' words, right?) but that doesn't change what the message is. Your interpretation, right?
Stand on the outside? I was raised catholic, don't tell me I'm on the outside of anything regarding my life, you don't know me very well.
This forum, and topic, is about sensible arguement, and saying I stayed at a Holiday inn last night belittles everything the Close is about...
And don't trouble yourself saving me the trouble of posting what's on my mind, alright?
If you don't wan't to stand by your post, say so, or better yet, stay out.
Go back to the tank if you want to bully people about.
I'm not the one bullying anyone Dromond. You're the one telling me that the way I was raised was wrong. You're the one who finds the need to dismantle other people's beliefs. I've made the point repeatedly that no one else's beliefs have any meaning or effect on me. Rather, I have (and will continue) to explain what my beliefs are, and what my church and faith teach.
You want to tell me I'm wrong? OK, be my guest, but you haven't got a leg to stand on. All you can do is express your opinion and relate your experience.
However you're the one telling me I'm not welcome. You're the one who's calling me names, and you're the one who's discounting my opinion and beliefs. Christ's Message is what it is. You are entitled to accept it or not. You're entitled to interpret it any way you like. That's what freewill is all about. But your interpretation doesn't diminish mine.
Your post is why I rarely come in here, and it's typical of most religious discussions I've been in. They usually go like this:
- A non-Christian makes an attack on Christianity.
- A Christian says, "no, that's not been my experience".
- The non-Christian proceeds to tell the Christian that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
- The Christian reiterates his point.
- The non-Christian responds as you did, getting both defensive and offensive.
The Holiday Inn comment was an attempt at levity to try and prevent someone from going off the deep end. Apparently it didn't work.
You want to tell me I'm wrong? OK, be my guest, but you haven't got a leg to stand on. All you can do is express your opinion and relate your experience.
However you're the one telling me I'm not welcome. You're the one who's calling me names, and you're the one who's discounting my opinion and beliefs. Christ's Message is what it is. You are entitled to accept it or not. You're entitled to interpret it any way you like. That's what freewill is all about. But your interpretation doesn't diminish mine.
Your post is why I rarely come in here, and it's typical of most religious discussions I've been in. They usually go like this:
- A non-Christian makes an attack on Christianity.
- A Christian says, "no, that's not been my experience".
- The non-Christian proceeds to tell the Christian that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
- The Christian reiterates his point.
- The non-Christian responds as you did, getting both defensive and offensive.
The Holiday Inn comment was an attempt at levity to try and prevent someone from going off the deep end. Apparently it didn't work.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
What I'm truly interested in Dromond (if you care) is why you don't believe in the same Biblical Message that I (and apparently the other Christians here) believe.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
It's a long story, Cail... But first let me say this: Thank you!
That is the first time someone in my life, on this board or in real life...has asked me... why.
As short as I can: I was raised a Christian,began doubting about 13, then about 18, I became exposed to other ways of thinking, reading books and writers I never knew existed. I learned a lot about the Church that they denied, and weighing things as I could, found the Church to be lying.
Reading the Bible objectively, I found it to be written by men and not inspired by God. (my opinion, of course, yet I stand by it.)
And learning the church the nuns and priests didn't teach in school, I've come of the opinion that the Bible has caused an immense amount of misery in history. That is why I am the way I am on this board, as you people know me.
Ive always tried to be respectful, knowing it's people I'm talking to. Maybe at times I've failed.
That is the first time someone in my life, on this board or in real life...has asked me... why.
As short as I can: I was raised a Christian,began doubting about 13, then about 18, I became exposed to other ways of thinking, reading books and writers I never knew existed. I learned a lot about the Church that they denied, and weighing things as I could, found the Church to be lying.
Reading the Bible objectively, I found it to be written by men and not inspired by God. (my opinion, of course, yet I stand by it.)
And learning the church the nuns and priests didn't teach in school, I've come of the opinion that the Bible has caused an immense amount of misery in history. That is why I am the way I am on this board, as you people know me.
Ive always tried to be respectful, knowing it's people I'm talking to. Maybe at times I've failed.
Thanks man. Seriously, no offense was intended by my post.
And I think that the "man" part of the equation is the usual problem. We have a tendency to be very self-serving.
Your experience is very similar to mine. To make it short:
- Baptized Episcopalian at birth, never attended church.
- Fell in with the Southern Baptists in middle school. Spent three years learning how to hate everyone. Jews, gays, blacks, Catholics....everybody.
- Couldn't understand the schism between the New Testament and what I was hearing in church. Decided the whole thing was f*cked, became a very angry atheist for 15 years or so.
- At some point in my mid-20s, I softened a bit and became agnostic.
- Had (for lack of a better way of putting it) a spiritual awakening at 31 and became Catholic.
- Believe (as I hear in mass) that God loves everyone, and that salvation is denied to no one.
I would amend this to: "Man's interpretation of the Bible has caused an immense amount of misery in history".Dromond wrote:I've come of the opinion that the Bible has caused an immense amount of misery in history.
And I think that the "man" part of the equation is the usual problem. We have a tendency to be very self-serving.
Your experience is very similar to mine. To make it short:
- Baptized Episcopalian at birth, never attended church.
- Fell in with the Southern Baptists in middle school. Spent three years learning how to hate everyone. Jews, gays, blacks, Catholics....everybody.
- Couldn't understand the schism between the New Testament and what I was hearing in church. Decided the whole thing was f*cked, became a very angry atheist for 15 years or so.
- At some point in my mid-20s, I softened a bit and became agnostic.
- Had (for lack of a better way of putting it) a spiritual awakening at 31 and became Catholic.
- Believe (as I hear in mass) that God loves everyone, and that salvation is denied to no one.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
I think the idea of an omnipotent God and free will are not so opposite. God can give up His control over man if He so decides. His power, technically, is lessened, but of His own accord. In His sovereignty, He's allow mankind free will.
It reminds me of Jesus. If Jesus is God, then He willingly gave up power in order to enter this world, to enter time itself (
), for mankind's sake (one reason its hard to argue the Bible teaches man has no value).
It reminds me of Jesus. If Jesus is God, then He willingly gave up power in order to enter this world, to enter time itself (
), for mankind's sake (one reason its hard to argue the Bible teaches man has no value).--Andy
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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iQuestor
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 12:20 am
- Location: South of Disorder
Cail wrote:Thanks man. Seriously, no offense was intended by my post.
I would amend this to: "Man's interpretation of the Bible has caused an immense amount of misery in history".Dromond wrote:I've come of the opinion that the Bible has caused an immense amount of misery in history.
And I think that the "man" part of the equation is the usual problem. We have a tendency to be very self-serving.
Your experience is very similar to mine. To make it short:
- Baptized Episcopalian at birth, never attended church.
- Fell in with the Southern Baptists in middle school. Spent three years learning how to hate everyone. Jews, gays, blacks, Catholics....everybody.
- Couldn't understand the schism between the New Testament and what I was hearing in church. Decided the whole thing was f*cked, became a very angry atheist for 15 years or so.
- At some point in my mid-20s, I softened a bit and became agnostic.
- Had (for lack of a better way of putting it) a spiritual awakening at 31 and became Catholic.
- Believe (as I hear in mass) that God loves everyone, and that salvation is denied to no one.
bolded -- I made the same point earlier.
Cail, serious questions here, I ask because I don't know. : How can this be? I am a little ignorant of Catholicism -- Christians as you know beleive Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. So those who don't accept Jesus as a personal savior and God's Son will go to hell. So according to them, Catholics are going to Hell. Is this your understanding of Baptists beliefs as well?- Believe (as I hear in mass) that God loves everyone, and that salvation is denied to no one
How do Catholics allow that Christians will go to heaven (salvation) if they (presume) falsly that Jesus is God's Son and therefore don do the things Catholics do (ie confession, etc) to make sure they have salvation??
again, I ask because I dont understand and would love to. Because This is a big problem of mine. It appears to me that all religions claim salvation is available to everyone, but when you get down to it, if you arent part of their religion, you are out.
can / would you comment on your beliefs in this?
Last edited by iQuestor on Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Yeah, but I said it better...... 
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
iQuestor, I would say salvation is denied to no one either. But that doesn't mean everyone accepts it. Jesus never turned anyone away, but He allowed them to walk away.
Not sure if that's what Cail meant.
Not sure if that's what Cail meant.
--Andy
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
-
Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
- Been thanked: 3 times
In a broad way, I have no problem with God being omnipotent but refraining from the exercise of that attribute...even humans are sometimes capable of that.
It's the omniscience that is the problem for free will. If God knows [or even could know if s/he chose] the future, then it matters not at all if we do or not...we are constrained/determined by that knowledge, there is no choice because no possibility for change [or salvation, for that matter: God already knows who will be saved even if we don't] There are other problems with omniscience, and omnipresence as well.
Now, there are plenty of ways for there to be a God that is not like this, but Christians, and many other religions, insist on this way, which leads to infinite harm whether the intention is to cause harm or not (and often it isn't.)
I believe in the power, value, and necessity of faith, in general terms [even language and logic require a tiny bit of faith to be of any use at all]
I believe in the possibility of something more than human.
I even believe there is much to be learned from Christ [and other important messengers in other faiths] whether of not he was actually the "Son of God."
If I believed in a God as defined by people in any of dozens of religions, I'd shoot myself today, except that that would send me to damnation sooner.
It's the omniscience that is the problem for free will. If God knows [or even could know if s/he chose] the future, then it matters not at all if we do or not...we are constrained/determined by that knowledge, there is no choice because no possibility for change [or salvation, for that matter: God already knows who will be saved even if we don't] There are other problems with omniscience, and omnipresence as well.
Now, there are plenty of ways for there to be a God that is not like this, but Christians, and many other religions, insist on this way, which leads to infinite harm whether the intention is to cause harm or not (and often it isn't.)
I believe in the power, value, and necessity of faith, in general terms [even language and logic require a tiny bit of faith to be of any use at all]
I believe in the possibility of something more than human.
I even believe there is much to be learned from Christ [and other important messengers in other faiths] whether of not he was actually the "Son of God."
If I believed in a God as defined by people in any of dozens of religions, I'd shoot myself today, except that that would send me to damnation sooner.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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iQuestor
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 12:20 am
- Location: South of Disorder
Cyberwheeze said:
Lets assume there is a God, and that there exists a religion on Earth that offers the true path to salvation.
If each major religion teaches that theirs is the only way to salvation, then only a small segment of humanity will actually get salvation. Is it the Catholics? The Christians? One of the various Protestant denominations? Islam? COTFSM? others?? We dont know. We only have faith.
Now, each religion requires Faith from the beleiver that they are on the true path. God also requires Faith. I know of no western exceptions to this rule.
I also assume people of each religion have their religous awakening when they truly beleive and dedicate their lives. Their beleif is no less ferverent or pure or honest than any other people of other religions. They have the same spiritual feelings. So its not as if they can tell if they are on the right path or not based on these feelings.
Now lets Assume Christians are right: Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. A devout Catholic shows up at the pearly gates. Lived his life to letter of Catholic Law. Obeyed the laws, kept confession, Kept the faith. did everything he was supposed to do. And God turns him away on a technicality.
He had all the requirements, except he had the bad luck to be born Catholic, or raised catholic, or turned to a priest when a Pastor wasnt available. No Matter. he is going to Hell. On a technicality.
If there is a God, and he loves us and wants to offer us Salvation, then how could he possibly allow this confusion to happen? Its not a matter of Faith, because ALL religions have faith. All religions teach theirs is the right way. So we as humans can't tell, and base our decision on birth or life circumstances. Salvation is a lottery. And I cannot believe in a God who loves us but would let this condition persist.
perhaps. But it remains the biggest mystery to me of all with the idea of God:iQuestor, I would say salvation is denied to no one either. But that doesn't mean everyone accepts it. Jesus never turned anyone away, but He allowed them to walk away.
Lets assume there is a God, and that there exists a religion on Earth that offers the true path to salvation.
If each major religion teaches that theirs is the only way to salvation, then only a small segment of humanity will actually get salvation. Is it the Catholics? The Christians? One of the various Protestant denominations? Islam? COTFSM? others?? We dont know. We only have faith.
Now, each religion requires Faith from the beleiver that they are on the true path. God also requires Faith. I know of no western exceptions to this rule.
I also assume people of each religion have their religous awakening when they truly beleive and dedicate their lives. Their beleif is no less ferverent or pure or honest than any other people of other religions. They have the same spiritual feelings. So its not as if they can tell if they are on the right path or not based on these feelings.
Now lets Assume Christians are right: Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. A devout Catholic shows up at the pearly gates. Lived his life to letter of Catholic Law. Obeyed the laws, kept confession, Kept the faith. did everything he was supposed to do. And God turns him away on a technicality.
He had all the requirements, except he had the bad luck to be born Catholic, or raised catholic, or turned to a priest when a Pastor wasnt available. No Matter. he is going to Hell. On a technicality.
If there is a God, and he loves us and wants to offer us Salvation, then how could he possibly allow this confusion to happen? Its not a matter of Faith, because ALL religions have faith. All religions teach theirs is the right way. So we as humans can't tell, and base our decision on birth or life circumstances. Salvation is a lottery. And I cannot believe in a God who loves us but would let this condition persist.
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
I'm going to preface this by saying that I am not a theologian, and I speak for no one other than myself. I'm also not interested in changing anyone's mind. If someone does, it's on them.
Anyhow, we (Catholics) do believe that Jesus was/is God's son. Yet He's also God. From the Profession of Faith:
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made."
As far as the various sacraments are concerned, they are not a prerequisite in order to have salvation. They're important, and we (or at least, I) take them pretty seriously, but there's no checklist at the Pearly Gates.
Now as far as everyone else is concerned, there's this from our Profession of Faith:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen."
One God, period. One God who (being God) can manifest himself in many ways to many people. The God who made Heaven and earth has revealed himself to me as the God of the Catholic Church. To someone else, he's the Presbyterian God, to another he's Allah, and so on. No mortal can claim the knowledge of God, so who the Hell are we to say which faith is the "only" one and the rest are wrong?
One God, different ways of getting to Him.
Point is that anyone can achieve salvation. There is no single path.
From the way things went in the Baptist church I went to, it seemed like if you weren't attending the sermon, you weren't going to Heaven. I've never understood a lot of the hate towards Catholics from the various fundamental Protestant sects. I think it's a lack of understanding, but I honestly don't get it. The thing that I (now) find ironic about many of the fundamentalist churches is that they stress the importance of being "born again" in Christ, but they rely almost solely on the Old Testament, which is utterly devoid of His teachings.iQuestor wrote:Cail, serious questions here, I ask because I don't know. : How can this be? I am a little ignorant of Catholicism -- Christians as you know beleive Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. So those who don't accept Jesus as a personal savior and God's Son will go to hell. So according to them, Catholics are going to Hell. Is this your understanding of Baptists beliefs as well?
I think there's a ton of confusion about the Trinity. The best way I can explain it is that God exists as more than one thing. God is God, yet he is also Jesus, who is also God's son. Jesus was both divine and human. It's that dichotomy that made the sacrifice so meaningful. God gave us His son, quite literally part of Him. He died horribly....as one of us. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to go that way.iQuestor wrote:How do Catholics allow that Christians will go to heaven (salvation) if they (presume) falsly that Jesus is God's Son and therefore don do the things Catholics do (ie confession, etc) to make sure they have salvation??
Anyhow, we (Catholics) do believe that Jesus was/is God's son. Yet He's also God. From the Profession of Faith:
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made."
As far as the various sacraments are concerned, they are not a prerequisite in order to have salvation. They're important, and we (or at least, I) take them pretty seriously, but there's no checklist at the Pearly Gates.
Again, I think this is yet another misconception. One of the first questions I asked of my Priest when I converted was, "Do you believe that Jews go to Heaven?". His answer (the right one) was simple. The New Testament speaks of "the new and everlasting covenant" that Christ declared His blood to be at the Last Supper. The old covenant never ceased to be....That is, the Old Testament promise made to the Jews.iQuestor wrote:again, I ask because I dont understand and would love to. Because This is a big problem of mine. It appears to me that all religions claim salvation is available to everyone, but when you get down to it, if you arent part of their religion, you are out.
Now as far as everyone else is concerned, there's this from our Profession of Faith:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen."
One God, period. One God who (being God) can manifest himself in many ways to many people. The God who made Heaven and earth has revealed himself to me as the God of the Catholic Church. To someone else, he's the Presbyterian God, to another he's Allah, and so on. No mortal can claim the knowledge of God, so who the Hell are we to say which faith is the "only" one and the rest are wrong?
One God, different ways of getting to Him.
Point is that anyone can achieve salvation. There is no single path.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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iQuestor
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 12:20 am
- Location: South of Disorder
Cail, thanks. That was great, and it cleared up some of my misconceptions about Catholics. I thought they didnt beleive Jesus was divine. glad to have that corrected.
I guess it makes me feel a little better that at least some religions do allow that other religions also share the same God but worship in different but valid ways.
thanks man.
I guess it makes me feel a little better that at least some religions do allow that other religions also share the same God but worship in different but valid ways.
thanks man.
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
My pleasure.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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SoulBiter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 9844
- Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:02 am
- Has thanked: 118 times
- Been thanked: 14 times
I agree Cail. Great explanation. I grew up Southern Baptist and as a young adult for about 10 years I went to Catholic church and explored Catholocism but that wasnt for me and I found my church home at a non-traditional Christian church. All that said.. by having been a part of 3 different versions of Christianity, I find that we all worship the same God but how we express that is different.
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch