How bad is it?

[Cail]

No it's not.

It's, "uses tired fantasy tropes and spends hundreds of pages exploring a character's inner conflicts while everyone sits in a field and does nothing".

It's hard to believe that this is the same guy who wrote The Power That Preserves or This Day All Gods Die.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

No it's not.

It's, "uses tired fantasy tropes and spends hundreds of pages exploring a character's inner conflicts while everyone sits in a field and does nothing".

It's hard to believe that this is the same guy who wrote The Power That Preserves or This Day All Gods Die.

Are you referring to AATE? in which

Spoiler

Roger was cast down again, Jeremiah's mind awakened, Joan was dealt with, a deal was made with the Lurker, stars in the sky are winking out of existence, there was a tidal wave, and the Elohim are now running for their lives thanks to Linden?

[Cail]

I'm referring to the entire Last Chronicles.

Glad you liked it, I thought it sucked.

[TheFallen]

I'm furiously musing now as to what degree AATE and indeed the whole Last Chronicles is/are flawed, compared to what has gone before. I ought to preface any comments below by stating firmly that on balance, I enjoyed AATE - primarily because TC is at last back and he is a character that has always fascinated and compelled my interest.

Yes, there are issues which I find disjointed and discordant, compared to the seamless artistry of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles - SRD seems to be careless with all but the central few characters. I was jolted out of my suspension of disbelief by the unbelievably sudden demises of Liand, Galt, and especially Anele, Esmer and Joan. These latter three had been set up as incredibly conflicted characters and yet they're all offed in the blink of an eye... the mysteries of their characters just don't feel resolved. All of these endings felt incredibly hasty and carelessly executed, as did the "pop through the trapdoor like a pantomime devil" appearance of SHE and the "blink and you'll miss it" long-awaited but utterly anti-climactic meeting between TC and Roger.

I freely acknowledge that SRD is 20 years older now and maybe his over-riding interest is now in providing the deepest introspection into his central protagonists' psychological and moral motivations. That is of course nothing more than his authorial prerogative.

However, this is I think proving justifiably hard for many to swallow, when comparing the Last Chronicles against Chrons 1 and 2, which I would absolutely agree are far more fully rounded, far better balanced between characterisation and plot and therefore better narratively paced. I don't think people were expecting such a swing away from the epic towards a tightly focussed ethical psychodrama.

It's the apparent lack of SRD's interest in properly developing secondary characters in the Last Chrons that bothers me the most. Looking back, I for one really cared about Foamfollower, Mhoram, Bannor, Hile Troy, Sunder, Hollian and the Giants of the Search because they were depicted in depth as characters. It was pretty clear to me that that SRD cared about them as well, given the care and attention with which he created them.

In stark contrast, I'm having trouble caring about the secondary characters in the Last Chrons, because they feel in comparison like two dimensional fuzzy felt place-holders, simply there to move the narrative on (and then be discarded) between long passages of describing Linden's internalized conflict - or as THOOLAH would no doubt put it, Linden's eternally whiny navel-gazing.

Having said all that, I absolutely want to know what's going to happen, if only because I more than care enough about the Land as brilliantly depicted by SRD in Chrons 1 and 2. My one fear is that SRD's focus will narrow even further in The Last Dark until nobody but Linden occupies full-frame, with all characters apart from TC and Jeremiah being disposed of in slap-dash manner.

I'm now going back to re-read ROTE and FR to see if I've missed anything.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

TheFallen:

All I can say is that if you don't feel compelled to care about the secondary characters, then that's because Donaldson doesn't care either for one reason or another. Your criticism is especially relevant for these new Giants about which I've seen so many similar complaints. I however don't want to "care" about any characters that are doomed, and anyway we still have TLD in which Donaldson may find a way to develop those personalities, making them less like cardboard cut-outs and more likable. Surely you didn't mean to imply that other characters were like them. Liand's characterization is no better or worse than any other Stonedowner. They are a simple folk, rather blunt, but in possession of enormous vocabularies.

My point that the story isn't over yet still remains. It's like someone criticizing a job I'm doing before I've even finished, perhaps I was going to correct such and such, but you didn't wait and see.

But it sounds like you're making all those deaths in AATE out to be meaningless, pointless. The only real shocker to me was Liand. He went like the Mahdoubt, kept around for a much longer mission but in the end it was almost as if he hardly existed except as a bearer of the orcrest. Yet that purpose was an important one and he did save everybody from the skurj in FR. Esmer got the end he was yearning for, even asked and begged for, but there was no other hope for that character and it serves the story no further purpose. Galt - he needed to sacrifice his life to aid in his father's transcendence, making certain things possible later on; and besides, his name sounds like an Ayn Rand character so he needed to die just because of that. Anele's end was a potential shocker, but not so much after all the previous dying. As for Joan - didn't Covenant find that task a little too easy, emotionally speaking? No, he is a leper after all, those nerves are supposed to be dead. "Don't touch me" is an effective way of saying, "don't reduce me to my emotions, there are tasks ahead that require a warrior's, or better, a Haruchai's kind of stamina and will."

[TheFallen]

My point that the story isn't over yet still remains. It's like someone criticizing a job I'm doing before I've even finished, perhaps I was going to correct such and such, but you didn't wait and see.

That's a very fair point because we obviously haven't reached the conclusion - but I think I found the reader journeys to the conclusions of Chrons 1 and 2 more satisfying and more involving... purely personal taste of course.

But it sounds like you're making all those deaths in AATE out to be meaningless, pointless.

Not meaningless, because they obviously move the plot along but I'd say unexpectedly abrupt and in a way discordant.

The only real shocker to me was Liand... Esmer got the end he was yearning for, even asked and begged for, but there was no other hope for that character and it serves the story no further purpose. Galt - he needed to sacrifice his life to aid in his father's transcendence, making certain things possible later on.

I'm prepared to be persuaded re the above.

Anele's end was a potential shocker, but not so much after all the previous dying.

I'm not convinced that a heap of previous sudden deaths justifies the abrupt dropping someone who I had accepted as a central character through a convenient trapdoor. It may be less of a surprise because courtesy of the previous 100 or so pages I've got a case of sudden death fatigue, but that doesn't make it any more easily acceptable.

As for Joan - didn't Covenant find that task a little too easy, emotionally speaking? No, he is a leper after all, those nerves are supposed to be dead. "Don't touch me" is an effective way of saying, "don't reduce me to my emotions, there are tasks ahead that require a warrior's, or better, a Haruchai's kind of stamina and will."

Hang on, TC isn't emotionally dead in the least, even if he'd like to be? In Chrons 2 he sacrificed his own real-world life for Joan's sakes, having taken care of her in her madness for some time. Okay, maybe her death in AATE is another mercy killing, along the lines of Esmer's, but it does all seem a little bit flip. It's presented like swatting a fly, rather than ending the life of someone significant to TC and to the narrative - he obviously loved Joan, she's the mother of his child and hey she's almost destroyed the Land... I'd call that significant.

I'm sure I do need to re-read ROTE and FR to get a more balanced perspective on AATE. I think that I (and many others) are judging Chrons 3 against Chrons 1 and 2, because I have such fond and frankly awe-inspired memories of the earlier works - maybe because ROTE and FR made less of an impression on me. Having said that, and playing major devil's advocate with myself, maybe with Chrons 3, SRD isn't setting out to create the same kind of novels any more and to judge him against an older yardstick may be understandable but unjust.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

My point that the story isn't over yet still remains. It's like someone criticizing a job I'm doing before I've even finished, perhaps I was going to correct such and such, but you didn't wait and see.

That's a very fair point because we obviously haven't reached the conclusion - but I think I found the reader journeys to the conclusions of Chrons 1 and 2 more satisfying and more involving... purely personal taste of course.

But it sounds like you're making all those deaths in AATE out to be meaningless, pointless.

Not meaningless, because they obviously move the plot along but I'd say unexpectedly abrupt and in a way discordant.

The only real shocker to me was Liand... Esmer got the end he was yearning for, even asked and begged for, but there was no other hope for that character and it serves the story no further purpose. Galt - he needed to sacrifice his life to aid in his father's transcendence, making certain things possible later on.

I'm prepared to be persuaded re the above.

Anele's end was a potential shocker, but not so much after all the previous dying.

I'm not convinced that a heap of previous sudden deaths justifies the abrupt dropping someone who I had accepted as a central character through a convenient trapdoor. It may be less of a surprise because courtesy of the previous 100 or so pages I've got a case of sudden death fatigue, but that doesn't make it any more easily acceptable.

I didn't justify Anele's death, I only said it was less of a shocker. "Sudden death fatigue." Characters in the Last are being used and then thrown away like Kleenex. How neat and tidy it all is.

But how to justify it all in a convincing fashion?

All I was trying to do is convince you that they weren't needless deaths. But how does Donaldson convince me personally? TWISTS. Throwing out the completely unexpected for those of us who expected the course of events to take a completely different route. Anele, "the last hope of the Land" - perhaps the next High Lord of the New Earth or something like that - he's dead? DEAD? WTF???

The Chrons have never been fantasy-as-usual. Donaldson has shocked and he continues to shock, sometimes in big and sometimes small ways. Have so many loose ends been tied up all at one time? And through so many good guys dying? Is this not a first in fantasy literature? I haven't read everything in fantasy, not by far. But that was unprecedented. I may even criticize Donaldson for using yet another Cavewight army to help it along. But I remember stating, out loud, while reading this chapter - "Donaldson is killing everybody!" That's a reaction, and as far as reactions go, it is perfectly valid. And I believe that type of reaction forms a necessary, though not sufficient, justification beyond the text itself, beyond any and all rationalizations performed within the context of the story.

As for Joan - didn't Covenant find that task a little too easy, emotionally speaking? No, he is a leper after all, those nerves are supposed to be dead. "Don't touch me" is an effective way of saying, "don't reduce me to my emotions, there are tasks ahead that require a warrior's, or better, a Haruchai's kind of stamina and will."

Hang on, TC isn't emotionally dead in the least, even if he'd like to be?

I purposely did not say that Covenant was emotionally dead. I did say that he did not want to be reduced to his emotions - purely for the purpose of taking on the enormous task ahead, such as killing his ex-wife whom he obviously still loves on some level. That implies he has emotions, and I never stated otherwise.

In Chrons 2 he sacrificed his own real-world life for Joan's sakes, having taken care of her in her madness for some time. Okay, maybe her death in AATE is another mercy killing, along the lines of Esmer's, but it does all seem a little bit flip. It's presented like swatting a fly, rather than ending the life of someone significant to TC and to the narrative - he obviously loved Joan, she's the mother of his child and hey she's almost destroyed the Land... I'd call that significant.

I'm sure I do need to re-read ROTE and FR to get a more balanced perspective on AATE. I think that I (and many others) are judging Chrons 3 against Chrons 1 and 2, because I have such fond and frankly awe-inspired memories of the earlier works - maybe because ROTE and FR made less of an impression on me. Having said that, and playing major devil's advocate with myself, maybe with Chrons 3, SRD isn't setting out to create the same kind of novels any more and to judge him against an older yardstick may be understandable but unjust.

I've had similar experiences with music. I don't have to like the way a particular artist is going with his career. I don't like Paul Simon's newer stuff, I didn't like the Beatles breaking up (I was too young to know, but I didn't like it "after the fact," heh). With music, I just move on to something else. With Donaldson, however - I had better learn to appreciate where he is going with all this. That is part of the reason I go to the Watch.

[Cail]

TWotWE:

We all get that the overall story isn't over, however 3 of the 4 books are complete, and they fail as novels as far as I'm concerned. That wasn't the case with the first 7 books, nor was that the case with The Gap.

Moreover, the story that Donaldson's attempting to tell with these Last Chronicles isn't very compelling to me, nor do I find it particularly well written.

This is amazingly frustrating to me, as I know that the man can write. But these past three books have been downright painful to read. There's been nothing as arresting as the escape from the Sandhold, or the Soothtell, or Lord Mhoram's Victory, or The Celebration of Spring.

Donaldson's lost it, and these last three books have been shadows of his prior work. Thanks Steve for giving me back something broken.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

TWotWE:

We all get that the overall story isn't over, however 3 of the 4 books are complete, and they fail as novels as far as I'm concerned. That wasn't the case with the first 7 books, nor was that the case with The Gap.

Moreover, the story that Donaldson's attempting to tell with these Last Chronicles isn't very compelling to me, nor do I find it particularly well written.

This is amazingly frustrating to me, as I know that the man can write. But these past three books have been downright painful to read. There's been nothing as arresting as the escape from the Sandhold, or the Soothtell, or Lord Mhoram's Victory, or The Celebration of Spring.

Donaldson's lost it, and these last three books have been shadows of his prior work. Thanks Steve for giving me back something broken.

Yes, and I liked the old Beatles better than the new Beatles.

[peter]

I've spotted a few references to Piers Anthony now and they don't seem to be very positive. I remember reading a few Xanth novels many years ago and they just seemed light hearted good fun fantasy. Not as intentionally humerous as Pratchett, but deliberately light and easy to read. I missed the bit where he 'sold out' though. Can someone explain to me what this is about.

[Horrim Carabal]

TWotWE:

We all get that the overall story isn't over, however 3 of the 4 books are complete, and they fail as novels as far as I'm concerned. That wasn't the case with the first 7 books, nor was that the case with The Gap.

Moreover, the story that Donaldson's attempting to tell with these Last Chronicles isn't very compelling to me, nor do I find it particularly well written.

This is amazingly frustrating to me, as I know that the man can write. But these past three books have been downright painful to read. There's been nothing as arresting as the escape from the Sandhold, or the Soothtell, or Lord Mhoram's Victory, or The Celebration of Spring.

Donaldson's lost it, and these last three books have been shadows of his prior work. Thanks Steve for giving me back something broken.

I disagree strongly with all of this.

[peter]

I can't help feling that the majority view of the Last Chrons is that most of us only keep reading them because of our love for the 1st and 2nd, and that if we had come straight to the Last without having first experienced the others, we would not bother to take the trouble to read them to completion.

[Orlion]

I can't help feling that the majority view of the Last Chrons is that most of us only keep reading them because of our love for the 1st and 2nd, and that if we had come straight to the Last without having first experienced the others, we would not bother to take the trouble to read them to completion.

I don't think it's a majority view, but the Last Chronicles seem to be polarizing. It seems you either love them or hate them. Those who love them (like myself) can't understand why anyone would hate them and those who hate them can't find any redeeming qualities. *shrug* There seem to be few in-betweeners...

[Zarathustra]

I can't help feling that the majority view of the Last Chrons is that most of us only keep reading them because of our love for the 1st and 2nd, and that if we had come straight to the Last without having first experienced the others, we would not bother to take the trouble to read them to completion.

I don't think it's a majority view, but the Last Chronicles seem to be polarizing. It seems you either love them or hate them. Those who love them (like myself) can't understand why anyone would hate them and those who hate them can't find any redeeming qualities. *shrug* There seem to be few in-betweeners...

Being an "in-betweener" is my whole problem. I can find plenty of redeeming qualities. It would be a lot easier if I just hated them. Then I wouldn't read them, and I'd not feel so conflicted.

[Vraith]

I can't help feling that the majority view of the Last Chrons is that most of us only keep reading them because of our love for the 1st and 2nd, and that if we had come straight to the Last without having first experienced the others, we would not bother to take the trouble to read them to completion.

I don't think it's a majority view, but the Last Chronicles seem to be polarizing. It seems you either love them or hate them. Those who love them (like myself) can't understand why anyone would hate them and those who hate them can't find any redeeming qualities. *shrug* There seem to be few in-betweeners...

Being an "in-betweener" is my whole problem. I can find plenty of redeeming qualities. It would be a lot easier if I just hated them. Then I wouldn't read them, and I'd not feel so conflicted.

It does seem pretty partisan overall, though.
What I find a bit odd [in this cuz it's literature, and it rarely happened when I was studying lit...wouldn't be at all odd in politics] is not polarization itself...it's the detail that the things I really love are exactly, almost word by word/scene by scene, the things the hate peeps hate.

[ninjaboy]

TWotWE:

We all get that the overall story isn't over, however 3 of the 4 books are complete, and they fail as novels as far as I'm concerned. That wasn't the case with the first 7 books, nor was that the case with The Gap.

Moreover, the story that Donaldson's attempting to tell with these Last Chronicles isn't very compelling to me, nor do I find it particularly well written.

This is amazingly frustrating to me, as I know that the man can write. But these past three books have been downright painful to read. There's been nothing as arresting as the escape from the Sandhold, or the Soothtell, or Lord Mhoram's Victory, or The Celebration of Spring.

Donaldson's lost it, and these last three books have been shadows of his prior work. Thanks Steve for giving me back something broken.

SD - Strongly Disagree.
I find the story incredibly compelling. The Land itself is probably the thing I loved most in the First Chrons. It had been altered over time, but now it is at immediate risk of complete destruction. My strongest wish is for it to be restored to the fundamental goodness and beauty of the First Chrons, and that wish has stayed with me from the first time I started reading the series. I am transfixed by the immanent destruction of that which I love, and am thusly interested in the actions of those who attempt to preserve it, no matter how futile.

I will grant that Donaldson's writing style has changed. But from where this story seems to be headed I believe that this is the hardest thing he has ever had to write. Saying that he's lost it is a bit harsh, IMHO, and more than a little wrong.

In AATE alone, I find the battle against the Croyel, Skest and Roger in the Lost Deep equal to any of the battles from the First and 2nd Chrons (save maybe LMV).

Spoiler

I found Liand and Pahni's love, and her grief at his sudden death as moving as the Slaughter of the Wraiths.

[ninjaboy]

Is the book bad? No. Not by a long shot.
BUT
Is it what the readers wanted? It more than likely isn't going in a direction some readers want, and it's perhaps is not as fast paced or involving as some may have wanted as well.

Is there any fault in this? I don't think so. For the author, there can be no blame. They are his words, and it is his creation, yes.. But now it seems that he is like the Creator, he began this thing, but now it has a life of it's own and he can no longer intervene or control it. All he can do it tell it's story the best that he can.

[ur-Timewarden]

I am transfixed by the immanent destruction of that which I love, and am thusly interested in the actions of those who attempt to preserve it, no matter how futile.

I read elsewhere on the forums that it was SRD's intent to not let anyone else write books with the Land as the setting, so I figured there were 2 possible outcomes:

1. The most likely, as it has been going on for the better part of 3 books now, is, as you mentioned, the destruction of the Land. When Kevin's Watch fell, I figured this was pretty much set in stone as the means to an end.

2. Something that I was hoping for though was with TC as the Timewarden and with Jeremiah's help, they would find a way to throw Foul outside the Arch (a construct of Jeremiah's), and then lock the Land in some sort of endless loop (remember the mobius strip in Jeremiah's bedroom?), so that the Land would be locked in time forever.

I mean, if the Land is destroyed, Foul wins, right? How many thousands of people would perish? Oh, the humanity (and Giant-ity, ur-vile-ity, etc.)!

[rdhopeca]

I mean, if the Land is destroyed, Foul wins, right? How many thousands of people would perish? Oh, the humanity (and Giant-ity, ur-vile-ity, etc.)!

Not necessarily. Even if the whole world is destroyed, if Foul is still trapped inside the Arch, he still loses.

[Cail]

I can't help feling that the majority view of the Last Chrons is that most of us only keep reading them because of our love for the 1st and 2nd, and that if we had come straight to the Last without having first experienced the others, we would not bother to take the trouble to read them to completion.

I certainly wouldn't have tortured myself through these last three books.

And it's a true statement that the Land and the characters belong solely to SRD. It's his story to tell as he sees fit. As someone who's been reading his books for 30 years, I think I'm well within my rights to be critical of the direction he's chosen, and critical of his stylistic choices.

I said a few years ago before RotE came out that I didn't think there was really anywhere interesting he could take the story. In hindsight, I was wrong, as I think there were a lot of ways he could have gone that would have been incredibly compelling, most of which would have gotten him to the same place that I think he's going.

Instead, what I've read seems like he took an early '80s text-only fantasy computer game, a yard-sale box of D&D paraphernalia, a Mad-Libs book summarizing the first 8 books, and a thesaurus, mixed it all up, and started typing up the results while watching Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

If I could find a single paragraph in these new books that grabbed me the way that his description of Thomas descending Kevin's Watch for the first time did in LFB (which is by far the weakest of the first 8 books), then I'd give Steve the benefit of the doubt. As a teenager, those 8 books floored me, and I made it a point to re-read them at least once a year. As a 30-something cynical married guy with a kid and a career, The Gap books floored me.

The Last Chronicles have made me want to toss the books on the floor.