Kevin's Watch

My "A Land of Lepers", perhaps? I can't seem to find anything else. The color discussion was off-topic there too.

I was sure this topic was in the Origonal TC forum and not the Runes one.

I found it: "What are the colors of Power". I can't say I really liked the topic that much (which is why I'm not bothering with a link) and anyway, I think the Runes forum would benefit from a color topic that didn't need spoiler tags to discuss recent events.

I'm a highly visual person and I think that's made me pay a lot of attention to how color is used in the books. It's really very pervasive.

I realize that I may have missed someone bringing this up already so for give me if i'm just repeating. But has no one thought that this might be Berek and not TC? I mean there are rips in time, the demondim <- before TC's time are chasing them and TC said to look for him but to remember that he is dead. How can this not be Berek? The only doppleganger we know of for TC.

Nom vs. Vain wrote:I realize that I may have missed someone bringing this up already so for give me if i'm just repeating. But has no one thought that this might be Berek and not TC?

Welcome to the Watch, N/V.

Yes, Berek is theory #534 of 2376, I think. There are several threads in the Runes forum devoted to this topic, including this one - pages and pages of theories about the identities of both riders, and the Mahdoubt.

But any theory that doesn't explain why the Covenant figure is accompanied by a Jeremiah figure who can apparently speak isn't worth wasting time on. I vacillate back and forth on whether these are the real characters or whether this is some deception of Foul's.

Besides, the only similarity we know of between Berek and Covenant is the halfhand... nowhere is Covenant described as a perfect lookalike of Berek, and when he sees Berek's spirit in TPTP, there's nothing that says they looked similar (you'd figure that if Berek looked exactly like TC, there would be at least half a sentence mentioning it, since it would be quite a surprise, even in that situation). Given that Linden recognizes the rider without even getting close to him, it's quite unlikely that the rider is Berek who "just happens" to look like Covenant...

A few quotes on the matter from Lord Fouls Bane:

Seeing Covenant, he started in surprise. An uneasy look came into his eyes.... Yet while he repramanded Lena, his eyes studied Covenant caustiously... 'So,' Trell responded ' a stranger----that I see... 'Well Thomas Covenant of Kevin's Watch---do you have other names?'

The girl was kneeling beside him. She had his maimed right hand clamped in both of hers, and concern stood like tears in her eyes. 'Berek,' she murmured painfully as he met her gaze, 'oh, Berek.'...'You are Berek Halfhand, the Lord- Fatherer'

'Halfhand. It is as Trell said. And some say that Berek Earthfriend, Heartthew and Lord- Fatherer, will return to the Land when there is need. Do you know these things?'... 'Do you know the song Covenant? There is no white gold in the Land. Gold has never been found in the Earth, though it is said that Berek knew of it, and made the songs.'

Bloody Hell! Berek, he groaned. Do you think it's that easy? Do you think that ordinary human despair is enough, that if you just feel bad enough something cosmic or at least miraculous is bound to come along and rescue you? Damn you! he's going to destroy them! You're just another leper outcast unclean, and you don't even know it!

Please understand in turn that knowledge of the ring is necessary to us. Your semblance to Berek Halfhand is not gratuitous.

First Quote- Trell
2nd- Lena
3rd- Atarian
4th- TC
5th- High Lord Prothal

All of this and many more in LFB... I found these just skimming through...

Erm, yes, but all those quotes only prove that the people of the Land thought Covenant was Berek because of four things, only one of which is physical in nature:

1) Covenant has a halfhand - Berek had a halfhand;
2) Covenant has white gold - Berek supposedly knew of white gold;
3) It's said Berek would return one day;
4) The way Covenant first appeared to Lena lends credence to the belief that he is not an ordinary person.

Nowhere is it said "well, this is how Berek looked like, his nose was just like Covenant's, his eyes were just like Covenant's, he was gaunt like Covenant, and so on". The simple reason is that he is taken for Berek because of the circumstances of his arrival, his half-hand, a prophecy, and his white gold. Given that thousands of years passed between Berek and Covenant's arrival, I find it hard to think that the people of the Land even knew what Berek looked like: stories and descriptions have a tendency to become more vague with time. Likely, by the time Covenant arrived, all they knew of Berek's physical appearance was that he had a halfhand. And again, if Berek really resembled Covenant, how comes there was not even half a sentence about this uncanny resemblance when Covenant finally sees Berek's spirit?

There's also the tapestry in TC's room in Revelstone... Berek seems to be depicted on it, yet again there's no reference that they actually look like each other.

Of course, the tapestry could have been made well after Berek's time and may not have looked like Berek... but nobody ever says it looks like TC.

Well to each his own I suppose. Personally I think that Prothal's statement about how the resemblance was not gratuitous says enough. I don't guess there is any direct statementsaying they are "twins seperated at birth" or anything but I've always felt that SRD is a good enough writer that he doesn't have to slap you in the face with direct connection. The other reason I draw the connection with Berek is that this story line is cyclical, I have no doubt that everything will wrap up into a nice neat package where everything ties in and makes sense, because allthough SRD is just now writing the last chronicles I'm sure he had them all written in his head before he ever put pen to paper or hands to keyboard. For anyone who doesn't think this story is cyclical ask yourself why he chose a ring as the main talismen of power... I'm sure it wasn't to draw more similarities between TCTC and Lord of the Rings.

He said himself that he chose the ring because he needed a symbol of Covenant's marriage as a symbol of all he had lost, and a wedding ring was the simplest way to convey that. In any case, he also said he only came up with the idea for the Last Chronicles when he came up with the idea for the Second Chronicles, so when he wrote the First Chronicles he had absolutely no idea there would be sequels.

In any case, "the semblance is not gratuitous" could simply refer to the halfhand - after all, apart from Covenant and those who were "inspired" by him (the three Bloodguard maimed by Foul and the Humbled now), how many halfhanded people have we met in the Chronicles? It's likely that if Jeremiah had been the one to first appear in the Land, Prothall would have said "the semblance is not gratuitous" referring to his halfhand as well. Sure, SRD would not slap us in the face with blatant statements, but you'd think that if Berek looked exactly like Covenant, Covenant would have noticed (if not in the tapestry, when meeting Berek's spirit)... I know I would notice it if that dead guy about whom I've heard so much just happened to look exactly like me...

I would take that as a slap in the face... but again... its all speculation and hoping for me... I personally think it would be a good direction to take the novels...

Relayer wrote:There's also the tapestry in TC's room in Revelstone... Berek seems to be depicted on it, yet again there's no reference that they actually look like each other.

Of course, the tapestry could have been made well after Berek's time and may not have looked like Berek... but nobody ever says it looks like TC.

Maybe it looks like Jeremiah?

It seems unlikely to me that Linden, now that she has recovered her enchanced perception, could be deceived about the identity of TC. Also, they posess the Staff of Law, surely that is a test of truth that no one could count on passing with enough certainty to make the idea of masquerading as TC attractive.

I lean towards the idea that TC has been raised and compelled by LF, as he warned was possible at the end of the second chronicles. He warns Linden not to trust him because after he is summoned to the Land he will be bound by the Law like Kevin or Elena, obedient to his summoner.

Callback wrote:Maybe it looks like Jeremiah?

I suppose it's possible Berek looks like Jeremiah will when he grows up. But I don't think that's where the story's going. For one thing, the legend of Berek tells of the time he lost his fingers, and Jere already lost his.

I wonder how his presence will affect the Humbled...

Relayer wrote:

Callback wrote:Maybe it looks like Jeremiah?

I suppose it's possible Berek looks like Jeremiah will when he grows up. But I don't think that's where the story's going. For one thing, the legend of Berek tells of the time he lost his fingers, and Jere already lost his.

I wonder how his presence will affect the Humbled...

"Jerk... we started the whole 'let's cut our fingers off' fashion, and now all these punks show up, running around without fingers. Who do they think they are?!"

Xar wrote:

Relayer wrote:

Callback wrote:Maybe it looks like Jeremiah?

I suppose it's possible Berek looks like Jeremiah will when he grows up. But I don't think that's where the story's going. For one thing, the legend of Berek tells of the time he lost his fingers, and Jere already lost his.

I wonder how his presence will affect the Humbled...

"Jerk... we started the whole 'let's cut our fingers off' fashion, and now all these punks show up, running around without fingers. Who do they think they are?!"

I personaly thought it was arogant for TC to thik that when Foul cut the hands to the Bloodgaurd to mock the vow that they were made to resemble him, how do we know that that foul made them to resemble Berek. Just a thought.

Well, it mostly doesn't matter, of course, because:

a) Berek was long dead, so he wouldn't exactly care, and

b) the people of the Land thought that Covenant was Berek reincarnated.

But, since Foul did that for maximum despair, it's a good guess to imagine that he did it to mock Covenant (who was to be broken so he would give Foul the ring) rather than Berek (since all the people of the Land would probably consider the mocking being directed at Covenant anyway, and Berek was dead).

ok -- i'm not sure if this needs to be spoilered. but the current latest answer in the GI strongly implies that it really is TC at end... ??