Kevin's Watch

In his fight with Palpatine at the Senate, Yoda realizes pretty much what Warmark Jay said. He realize that the Sith had changed and become more powerful, and that the Jedi had remained unchanged and complacent. He realizes that the Jedi must change as an order.

Yet Yoda and Obi-Wan do not consider the possibility that Luke may be right. And this again shows the inherent weakness of the Jedi. I don't see them allowing Luke to go fight Vader in "Empire" a repudiation of "old school" Jedi thinking; freedom of choice (even if it's just lip service) and a reluctance to "interfere" with an uncertain future are certainly elements of the warrior-monk philosophy that we saw from the Jedi in the prequels. Mace Windu and the Council were perfectly content to sit idly by and watch events unfold until it was too late to do anything about them.

In a sense, this story is not a struggle between good and evil - it's a struggle between "immorality" (the Sith, whose exploits speak for themselves), and a type of "amorality" shown by the Jedi. For whatever reason (fear of their own power?), the Jedi were content to be just what they were - the guardians of the Old Republic. And like any watchdog, they obeyed they masters without giving much thought to the consequences. The Jedi used their powers to preserve the status quo, not for any ultimate good.

Wow - a "Star Wars" movie that inspires deep thought. Go figure.

Good points, WJ. As I understand it, Palpatine came to power because of a corrupt and unchanging Republic. In that sense, the jedi reflect the soul of the Republic as they are unable to change to meet the circumstances.

duchess of malfi wrote:Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the Force.

He does this through the destruction of both the Jedi and the Sith.

Great post Duchess. And a brilliant extension of my own idea that it was the overthrow of the Jedi that balanced out the Force which they had dominated for millenia.

--A

No, I think he brings balance to the Force by merging the Light and Dark Side together. So now there's just the Force. No more Sith and no more Jedi. Just Force users.

And as for what comes after Return of the Jedi, i think we can safely ignore what comes after. I mean there are loads of different books and stories that say what comes after; and they all conflict with each other. I read a series of books where Luke and Leia had children together. What a load of rubbish.

Don't you mean Han and Leia?

Anyway, I was pretty much of the understanding that the novels that follow on from RotJ were officially sanctioned by Lucas.

--A

Avatar wrote:Don't you mean Han and Leia?

Anyway, I was pretty much of the understanding that the novels that follow on from RotJ were officially sanctioned by Lucas.

--A

no, I mean Luke and Leia. I'm serious. In some stories, done by, I assume, by a loser who is married to his sister, after the sequels, the two twins decided to get together; Under the theory, that because they didn't know they were twins, it doesn't matter. I naturally assume any children they have will get webbed hands and feet.

Weird. Those, I never saw. I know that in the official one, Han and Leia had twins of their own, and another child too if I remember.

--A

I'm getting well on towards the end of the novelisation now, and Anakin's fall is so much more understandable in written form. On this basis, injecting some meaning wouldn't even have taken loads of additional scenes or an hour of extra footage - all the film needed was Anakin/Palpatine's "Name it and it's yours" scene. That is tied with the Skywalker/Kenobi/Dooku duel as my favourite part of the book so far.

I've had the same thoughts about the ambiguity of the jedi in terms of their rightness. Funny thing is, I don't credit Lucas with it. In fact, I'm not even sure Lucas was aware of what he was doing... Was he?

I've had the same thoughts about the ambiguity of the jedi in terms of their rightness. Funny thing is, I don't credit Lucas with it. In fact, I'm not even sure Lucas was aware of what he was doing... Was he?

I think yes. It's been reported that Lucas spent time hanging out with Coppola during the pre-production and writing stages of "Episode III", and it's not hard to spot the influence. There are a lot of parallels between the themes of "The Godfather" pictures and Ep. III. Anakin's fall is very similar in a way to Michael Corleone's rise to power; both do evil things for what they believe to be the right reasons. And both pictures paint pretty bleak views of traditional concepts of justice and government, and the institutions that are supposed to uphold those. In the Godfather movies, individuals (Capt. McClusky, Senator Geary) and the institutions they represent are corrupt and maleable; only those with the will to power are able to protect those they love (in both films, this translates to family) and mete out justice to anyone who threatens or harms those loved ones. And of course, both Anakin and Michael ultimately cause the deaths of those closest to them. This is the stuff of Greek and Shakespearean tragedy; Lucas knows his mythology and literature, and surely drew upon these when writing the film.

Like I said, I think Ep. III is more sophisticated than one might think. And it's why - never thought I'd say this! - it's become my favorite film in the series.

Darth Revan wrote:I read a series of books where Luke and Leia had children together. What a load of rubbish.

Eww!

I second that eww.

I third that ewwwok.

me teeeww.

I read a series of books where Luke and Leia had children together. What a load of rubbish.

"Sister! So...you have a sister! Obi-wan's failure is now complete. Although I wish I had know that when I was, err, having my way with her back on the old Death Star, while the Torture Droid video'ed the whole thing and distributed it amongst the troops as a morale booster. Awkward!"

I also ewwwwww

Guess what!! I got to see it!! (wore my pink hat to the theater, hehehe)

Wow, when Lucas said this one would be darker, he wasn't kidding. I enjoyed it, very very sad what happened to Anakin. Palapatine played him like a lute. And as for the "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" I thought it was a good touch, the last of Anakin slipping away, making his transformation into Vader complete.

Don't know about the rest of you, but the scenes of them adding the robitics/bionics to his mutilated body while he was awake made me really cringe. And superimposing the birth of the babies along with that, was very emotional for me...this is the first star wars movie that actually brought me to tears.

I thought it was the best of the prequels, but still not as good as Empire.

Furls, you and I may be the only people around here who didn't have a problem with the "Noooo!" moment.

I think all the criticism over that scene is much ado over very little (but I'm sure that those disappointed by Ep. III could turn around and say that my glowing appraisals of the movie is also much ado over nothing).

On my second viewing of ROTS, I actually shed a few tears, too--again, as with Furls, this is the firs time a Star Wars movie has affected me like that. In my case, it wasn't the baby scenes that were especially emotional; it was the sad meeting of Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan on Mustafar, and the tragic disintegration of their mutual friendship, and of the love between Padme and Anakin.

And the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan and its bitter end also moved me to tears.

Well there's alot of people criticising that 'Noooooo'.

That 'Noooooo' was frightful and cringworthy. Even worse than Aragorn telling Arwen to ride her horse hard!!!!