Kevin's Watch

ninjaboy wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Horrim Carabal wrote: Yeah I'd agree with that. Up until that point I'd never read a fantasy novel in which the heroes so utterly FAILED at their objective. Mind you, I was 13 at the time, but still....it shocked me and I was bitterly disappointed at the time.

And then there was "The Empire Strikes Back." Science fiction maybe, but that second of a trilogy certainly ended on a downer. Do we see a pattern emerging here?

2 things.. TESB was a Movie. It's completely unable to evoke the sort of passions, emotions, hopes and fears that the TC novels do. AND in the 'Land' it's basically impossible to want Fangthane to win. I've never met anyone who does. But in Lucas' universe, a hell of a lot of people don't want those goddamn rebels to win. And the ending of TESB is only 'bad' for the percentage who are in the Rebels' side.

Perspective. I hope you have some now.

I have learned of one possible subjective impression of TESB as a movie. My point hasn't gotten lost in all the off-base commentary, however. (And TESB was a book too.) But I left the main point for others to decipher, and that is - the strategy with a 3-part continuing story is to allow part 2 to end on a down note. Movie or book, it doesn't matter. This is a plot technique, and millions of kids were shattered emotionally by the ending of TESB, as was apparently intended by Lucas. (There are always exceptions to the rule - those who refuse to be moved by it for whatever reason.) This is a trope that can be traced back to the early days of film, but who knows where it got started and its not limited to film by any means. Even Beethoven's 9th symphony has its down-note second movement which then leads to the upbeat Ode to Joy movement. The technique itself does not require anybody's participation to be a technique. It doesn't matter if 100% of the audience was pro-Empire and were overjoyed by the ending of part 2, the effort to create a downer is still present.

Hmm... and you do see that in the first chronicles as well, with the army decimated, the Law of Death broken, Elena dead... that ended on a downer too... And in LotR, the book Two Towers ended with Frodo captured by orcs after presumed dead... just as another example, I'll have to see if the trilogy I'm reading now does that!

Orlion wrote:Hmm... and you do see that in the first chronicles as well, with the army decimated, the Law of Death broken, Elena dead... that ended on a downer too... And in LotR, the book Two Towers ended with Frodo captured by orcs after presumed dead... just as another example, I'll have to see if the trilogy I'm reading now does that!

There is more to the TIW trope. Not only does it end on a downer, but the next book begins on a definite trope: an army previously decimated has not had time to rebuild, and the opponent's army, which was bad to begin with, is now far worse than ever. The bad guy seems to have a limitless supply of soldiers off of some assembly line, while the good guys have to do everything the hard way.

On a side note, I find the LOTR to be such a forgettable little adventure story that I had neglected to mention the Two Towers ending. Which good guy characters were killed in LOTR? Borimir, that's all, right? And he was only the brother to a major player. LOTR did not pack nearly the same punch as the Chrons. (Except for the ending, it was better than the movie ending.)

The entire Last Chronicles.

peter wrote:The entire Last Chronicles.

What about it?

Worst book in TCOTC?

"The Last Dark".

(a) It's not on my shelf

(b) I haven't read it.

(c) It hasn't been written yet. It never even existed.



On a more serious note... well, I didn't think ROTE and FR were as good as the previous 6, until I came to re-reading them in preparation for AATE. I got MUCH more out of them 2nd time around. So I'd go with AATE, which I expect will improve in the same way on a second reading.

peter wrote:Yes - strangely that is the only occasion (I think - remind me if there are others) where Donaldson has lapsed into complete predictability. The moment Vain put on the heels, one on his wrist, the other on his ankle, it became 90% certain that he was the staff of law, his arm turning to wood made it 99.99%. The only people who couldn't see it coming were TC, LA and the rest of the questers. Findails incorporation caught me by suprise but the rest was prompted in the hamiest of stage whispers

p.s. I still loved it all!

There's another thread out there where many admitted that they were surprised.
Me among them.
I never had a clue.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
There's another thread out there where many admitted that they were surprised.
Me among them.
I never had a clue.

Me neither. Then later I'm smacking myself in the head wondering how I could have been fooled.

Like in The Sixth Sense...(also The Village for that matter, darn Shyamalan). I was like "what?"

Horrim Carabal wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
There's another thread out there where many admitted that they were surprised.
Me among them.
I never had a clue.

Me neither. Then later I'm smacking myself in the head wondering how I could have been fooled.

Like in The Sixth Sense...(also The Village for that matter, darn Shyamalan). I was like "what?"

Don't get me started on M. Night. Shamalamadingdong... I made the utterly fatal mistake of watching his movie "Signs" once. There's two hours of my life I'll never get back.

TheFallen wrote: Don't get me started on M. Night. Shamalamadingdong... I made the utterly fatal mistake of watching his movie "Signs" once. There's two hours of my life I'll never get back.

I quite like all of Shyamalan's movies, except for The Happening (which is awful).

He inspires these love-or-hate reactions, and I'm aware that for a great many people his movies don't resonate.

That having been said, I enjoy his films enough that I'll see a movie just because his name is over the title.

peter wrote:The entire Last Chronicles.

No, Peter! You have Kevin's Dirt in your eyes!
Read it again! It's the best!

Lord Zombiac wrote:

peter wrote:The entire Last Chronicles.

No, Peter! You have Kevin's Dirt in your eyes!
Read it again! It's the best!

Yes, it would appear so (re the dirt bit LZ), but alas I'm on my 3rd/4th re-read and damn it I'm tryin', but it's just not happening for me.

TOT for me, i liked the sense of mystery of the giants best in TIW and through foamfollowers tales, spending a book with them sort of devalued that in much the same way as meeting Kevin in TIW
(its like that saying about meeting your heroes will disappoint you) although in TIW it was useful to show that precisely in Elena's act of summoning him. i Also didnt so much enjoy leaving the land although i understand it was a good way of taking the story into a new direction with fresh ideas. Too much change and feeling uncomfortably lost without earthpower, lords, beauty of the land and ranyhyn....what does that say about me!!

Now thats funny johhnyredleader, almost the exact opposit for me in all respects. I loved meating the Giants over a sustained period and for me they lived right up to the promise that Saltheart Foamfollower (always my favorite Giant) gave for them.

For me, the leaving of the Land onboard the Giantship Starfare's Gem for a book was like a holiday from home (I'm only sad that we never got to go to Home), that we knew would end but was great while it lasted. I mean, Elemesnedene, Brathairealm, the Island of the One Tree ........

I rest my case

They were always different Giants to me. The Unhomed were wanderers and the others were Warriors. The first had a goal but no idea how to reach it, the latter kinda knew the goal and prepared for it and set out to accomplish it.

About the Giants...love them as characters, but never really "bought" that they couldn't find their Home. Why not? These incredible seafaring beings can't go back? Has something been done to the Earth itself?

If not, I can't understand why, with all their navigation skill, they can't find Home. Doesn't really make sense, unless Home is just a MacGuffin used by SRD to make you feel pathos and sympathy towards the Unhomed...

HC, dont have the books with me at work (an unfortunate state of affairs), but I recollect an implication that perhaps Foul's influence played a part in the inability of the Unhomed to find their lost country ..

Horrim Carabal wrote:unless Home is just a MacGuffin used by SRD to make you feel pathos and sympathy towards the Unhomed...

I love that HC! In fairness, all authors have to use tricks to build up empathy for their charachters and there's no reason SRD should be any different - but what a great way of putting it.

Sadly for me, 'AATE'. Endless 'inner voice' and reiteration - GET ON WITH IT. On rereading the series in prep for the latest book I found myself musing on how much filler the series contained. How much could easily be excised without in any way harming the story. I settled on 20-25% for the first eight volumes, but 33% for the latest installment.

Joe the Lion wrote:Sadly for me, 'AATE'. Endless 'inner voice' and reiteration - GET ON WITH IT. On rereading the series in prep for the latest book I found myself musing on how much filler the series contained. How much could easily be excised without in any way harming the story. I settled on 20-25% for the first eight volumes, but 33% for the latest installment.

Hi Joe,

Welcome to the Watch (assuming you are new!). I agree with you completly about this. There's a thread about the editing: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=828649&highlight=#828649

I also set up a thread for people who were less than thrilled with the Last Chrons (hasn't stopped me reading them, although I haven't got AATE yet. Can't justify buying the hardback): kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=828642&highlight=#828642

Hope to see you around the Watch,

u.