Global Climate Change

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Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra »

ParanoiA wrote:Ok, this is not what I signed up for. Go fuck yourself Z.
:lol: :lol:

Now, admit it. That felt damn good. Combined with your sig right below it, it's pretty badass. So we've both shown we're not timid men. Jefferson would approve. Honestly, I'd rather you say what you said here than the "you don't know anything about statistics, so you should shut up," remark.

If you're like me, you'll regret it soon. Don't! It honestly doesn't bother me. We can continue whenever you want.
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Post by ParanoiA »

There's nothing "badass" about telling someone to fuck off. It's a breakdown in character and self control and I'm goddamn ashamed of it.

This is not what I signed up here, at this forum for:
Are you still speaking to me? Or is this another instance where you're talking about my pyschology, but then claim you're not in the next post?
Well, you're not me. So stop telling me what you'd do if you were me. I'll continue to argue about whatever the fuck I want to, thank you.
Look, you have been repeatedly condescending and insulting to me on this issue.
And you know what that looks like? The step just before where you are now with Syl, Lucimay, Wayfriend..possibly Pliss?

Me, I'm falling into old habits too throwing in my jabs here and there and it isn't healthy for a productive discussion and runs counter to my intentions here. I really wanted to be able to participate in a forum without cultivating this kind of adversarial image, and I've failed.

Our discussions will look just like the dysfunctional bullshit baggage I see between you and however many enemies you've made on here. I'm not going there. You can have it.

Does that feel good too?
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Post by Zarathustra »

Okay, I was trying to make a joke and show no hard feelings. I personally respect people who say what they think. Maybe it's not badass, but it's true. I know what it's like to lose my temper, and regret it. And I knew that it would happen with you, too, and that it only means we're human. I was trying to leave the door open.

You chose to be condescending to me. I let you know I didn't like it. If that makes an adversarial relationship, it's one you caused. All I did was post an article you didn't like. And you chose to ridicule me for it.

Other people may or may not have explanations for what they perceive to be adversarial relationships. But if they go back and look at the record, they might remember saying things like, for instance, my kind of language got Tiller assassinated, or my opinions are lies. And then when I take up for myself, as I've done here, somehow I'm the problem. I make an easy target because I don't go run to the moderators and have them fix my problems for me. I confront it directly. Heck, I know there are at least five people reading this now who think the entire exchange was my fault (and you seem to be implying this yourself).

So you can take refuge with people who are predisposed to play the victim card if you choose. Or you can take responsibility for your own words. Like I do. If that makes me stand alone, I'm fine with it.
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Post by Avatar »

Ok, enough guys. We've been doing quite well, and I'd like it to carry on that way.

We can do without the sarcasm and the implications, not to mention the snide comments about other people. As for suggesting other people play victims, while arguably doing the same thing...

...apart from anything else, (both of you), it's bad form to drag other people and events into something that's between you. I don't like the past being used as justification.

If you don't like something Z, you can say so without resorting to unpleasant insinuations like that. You're capable of it. Hell, I liked your joke and response at the top of this page. But not the accusations. You can call somebody on insults or condescension without being insulting or condescending yourself. All that does is fuel the cycle.

And as for reading too much into the posting of an article, the posting is all that people have to go on. If you don't want people to make faulty assumptions based on what you post, then you have to qualify those posts.

So play nice guys.

Thanks.

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Post by Zarathustra »

Fair enough, Av. I didn't mean to imply that anyone on P's list was specifically who I was talking about. But you're right, I did use one example that can be attributed to one person. It came to mind because that's the example I was thinking of where I lost my temper and regretted it. But you're right, I shouldn't have brought it back up.

BTW, I thought I was defending myself against a personal attack, not playing the victim.

Maybe the Tank needs an "air your grievance" sticky thread. We can call it "gripe about Zarathustara" (okay, that's playing the victim). :)
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Post by Avatar »

Zarathustra wrote:BTW, I thought I was defending myself against a personal attack, not playing the victim.
And I'd wager that people you think are playing the victim could make the same claim. ;)

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Post by DukkhaWaynhim »

Ok, well.... so, the most recent point of disagreement is over whether or not the 15 year period in question is a great enough period to demonstrate a warming/cooling/no-change trend, statistically overcoming 'noise' inherent in the measurement?
We can agree that there was not a large change over the 15-yr period, right? The argument now is whether it is a significant temp difference, or better, a statistically significant temp difference.....?

So, can one conclude that there was not a large change in temperature over the period and be done with it? Yes. Is that enough to conclude anything else, proving or disproving the broader warming theories? I'm not sure... this is a complex calculation, to try to extrapolate *why* things are or are not cooling/warming, since there are many things that can impact it, and we only have a few things that we can measure.
And can we really consider the Earth a closed system? We can, but I think doing so threatens our ability to draw good conclusions, especially from changes of a tenth of a degree over a 15-yr period. And when you consider that solar energy can 'disappear' through conversion, e.g., chemical bonding via photosynthesis, it makes it harder and harder to draw good conclusions from measuring temperature. Perhaps average global temperature of the past is not a good predictor of future global temperatures trends.
I agree that it makes sense that human activities should have a net impact on the planet... but how can we conclusively measure that effect? Does this one article prove or disprove anything?
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Post by Orlion »

I think we should treat Earth as a closed system. Simplify things first, then add in the complex detail latter. That's what's done with the behaviour of gases, first you assume "ideal behaviour", do experiments and what not to see how that would work, even get important information out of it, then start accepting that it doesn't act ideally. By then, you have extra information that you can use to continue to build you model, and so on and so forth.

So, get a big box full of nothing, shine energy through, see how much comes out the other end. Fill the box with CO2 and repeat the experiment and see what happens. If there's a change, something is going on.

In later experiments, you could even have a thermometer in the box! *gasp*!

These have had to have been done all ready... any idea how we can find out?
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Post by finn »

Zarathustra wrote: Maybe the Tank needs an "air your grievance" sticky thread. We can call it "gripe about Zarathustara" (okay, that's playing the victim). :)
Excellent........where do I sign up?

:biggrin: :twisted: :P ;) :lol:
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Post by Ki »

finn wrote:
Zarathustra wrote: Maybe the Tank needs an "air your grievance" sticky thread. We can call it "gripe about Zarathustara" (okay, that's playing the victim). :)
Excellent........where do I sign up?

:biggrin: :twisted: :P ;) :lol:
Would it have to be only about Tank debate? :biggrin:
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Post by Avatar »

:haha: :haha: No fair Ki. :D Yes it would. But I wouldn't do that to Z. It would have to be a "gripe about anybody" thread. And it's not gonna happen...there's too much bloody griping as it is.

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Post by Cagliostro »

Ki wrote:
finn wrote:
Zarathustra wrote: Maybe the Tank needs an "air your grievance" sticky thread. We can call it "gripe about Zarathustara" (okay, that's playing the victim). :)
Excellent........where do I sign up?

:biggrin: :twisted: :P ;) :lol:
Would it have to be only about Tank debate? :biggrin:
Damn, Z....do the dishes once in a while, wouldja?
:biggrin:
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Climategate Meets the Law: Senator Inhofe To Ask for DOJ Investigation (Pajamas Media/PJTV Exclusive)

Posted By Charlie Martin On February 23, 2010 @ 2:00 am In . Feature 01, Science, Science & Technology | 189 Comments

Senator James Inhofe (R-OK) today asked the Obama administration to investigate what he called “the greatest scientific scandal of our generation” — the actions of climate scientists revealed by the Climategate Files, and the subsequent admissions by the editors of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Fourth Assessment Report (AR4).

Senator Inhofe also called for former Vice President Al Gore to be called back to the Senate to testify.

“In [Gore's] science fiction movie, every assertion has been rebutted,” Inhofe said. He believes Vice President Gore should defend himself and his movie before Congress.

Just prior to a hearing at 10:00 a.m. EST, Senator Inhofe released a minority staff report from the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee [1], of which he is ranking member. Senator Inhofe is asking the Department of Justice to investigate whether there has been research misconduct or criminal actions by the scientists involved, including Dr. Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University and Dr. James Hansen of Columbia University and the NASA Goddard Institute of Space Science.

This report, obtained exclusively by Pajamas Media before today’s hearing, alleges:

[The] Minority Staff of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works believe the scientists involved may have violated fundamental ethical principles governing taxpayer-funded research and, in some cases, federal laws. In addition to these findings, we believe the emails and accompanying documents seriously compromise the IPCC -backed “consensus” and its central conclusion that anthropogenic emissions are inexorably leading to environmental catastrophes.

As has been reported here at Pajamas Media over the last several months, the exposure of the Climategate Files has led to a re-examination of the IPCC Assessment Reports, especially the fourth report (AR4), published in 2007. The IPCC AR4 report was named by Environmental Protection Agency head Lisa Jackson as one of the major sources of scientific support for the agency’s Endangerment Finding, the first step towards allowing the EPA to regulate carbon dioxide as a pollutant.

Since the Climategate Files were released, the IPCC has been forced to retract a number of specific conclusions — such as a prediction that Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035 [2] — and has been forced to confirm that the report was based in large part on reports from environmental activist groups instead of peer-reviewed scientific literature. Dr. Murari Lal, an editor of the IPCC AR4 report, admitted to the London Daily Mail [3] that he had known the 2035 date was false, but was included in the report anyway “purely to put political pressure on world leaders.”

Based on this Minority Staff report, Senator Inhofe will be calling for an investigation into potential research misconduct and possible criminal acts by the researchers involved. At the same time, Inhofe will ask the Environmental Protection Agency to reopen its consideration of an Endangerment Finding for carbon dioxide as a pollutant under the Federal Clean Air Act, and will ask Congress to withdraw funding for further consideration of carbon dioxide as a pollutant.

In requesting that the EPA reopen the Endangerment Finding, Inhofe joins with firms such as the Peabody Energy Company [4] and several state Attorneys General (such as Texas [5] and Virginia [6]) in objecting to the Obama administration’s attempt to extend regulatory control over carbon dioxide emissions in the United States. Senator Inhofe believes this staff report “strengthens the case” for the Texas and Virginia Attorneys General.

Senator Inhofe’s announcement today appears to be the first time a member of Congress has formally called for an investigation into research misconduct and potential criminal acts by the scientists involved.

The staff report describes four major issues revealed by the Climategate Files and the subsequent revelations:

1. The emails suggest some climate scientists were cooperating to obstruct the release of damaging information and counter-evidence.
2. They suggest scientists were manipulating the data to reach predetermined conclusions.
3. They show some climate scientists colluding to pressure journal editors not to publish work questioning the “consensus.”
4. They show that scientists involved in the report were assuming the role of climate activists attempting to influence public opinion while claiming scientific objectivity.

The report notes a number of potential legal issues raised by their Climategate investigation:

1. It suggests scientific misconduct that may violate the Shelby Amendment — requiring open access to the results of government-funded research — and the Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) policies on scientific misconduct (which were announced December 12, 2000).
2. It notes the potential for violations of the Federal False Statements and False Claims Acts, which may have both civil and criminal penalties.
3. The report also notes the possibility of there having been an obstruction of Congress in Congressional Proceeds, which may constitute an obstruction of justice.

If proven, these charges could subject the scientists involved to debarment from federally funded research, and even to criminal penalties.

By naming potential criminal offenses, Senator Inhofe raises the stakes for climate scientists and others involved. Dr. Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit has already been forced to step aside because of the Climategate FOIA issues, and Dr. Michael Mann of Penn State is currently under investigation by the university for potential misconduct. Adding possible criminal charges to the mix increases the possibility that some of the people involved may choose to blow the whistle in order to protect themselves.

Senator Inhofe believes that Dr. Hansen and Dr. Mann should be “let go” from their posts “for the good of the institutions involved.”

The question, of course, is whether the Senate Democratic majority will allow this investigation to proceed, in the face of the Obama administration’s stated intention to regulate CO2 following the apparent death of cap and trade legislation. The Democratic majority has blocked previous attempts by Inhofe to investigate issues with climate science.

pajamasmedia.com/blog/climategate-and-t ... xclusive/
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Post by Avatar »

I think I'd be fine with an investigation to examine the extent of any research errors or ommissions, deliberate or otherwise.

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Post by finn »

So a republican senator is taking his turn on the top of the mullock heap? What a suprise. With respect HLT your posting an article about what someone else is spoutring for goodness knows what reasons..........
The staff report describes four major issues revealed by the Climategate Files and the subsequent revelations:

1. The emails suggest some climate scientists were cooperating to obstruct the release of damaging information and counter-evidence.
2. They suggest scientists were manipulating the data to reach predetermined conclusions.
3. They show some climate scientists colluding to pressure journal editors not to publish work questioning the “consensus.”
4. They show that scientists involved in the report were assuming the role of climate activists attempting to influence public opinion while claiming scientific objectivity.

The report notes a number of potential legal issues raised by their Climategate investigation:

1. It suggests scientific misconduct that may violate the Shelby Amendment — requiring open access to the results of government-funded research — and the Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) policies on scientific misconduct (which were announced December 12, 2000).
2. It notes the potential for violations of the Federal False Statements and False Claims Acts, which may have both civil and criminal penalties.
3. The report also notes the possibility of there having been an obstruction of Congress in Congressional Proceeds, which may constitute an obstruction of justice.

If proven, these charges could subject the scientists involved to debarment from federally funded research, and even to criminal penalties.

By naming potential criminal offenses, Senator Inhofe raises the stakes for climate scientists and others involved. Dr. Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit has already been forced to step aside because of the Climategate FOIA issues, and Dr. Michael Mann of Penn State is currently under investigation by the university for potential misconduct. Adding possible criminal charges to the mix increases the possibility that some of the people involved may choose to blow the whistle in order to protect themselves.

Senator Inhofe believes that Dr. Hansen and Dr. Mann should be “let go” from their posts “for the good of the institutions involved.”
Hell if it was for the general good why not sack Inhofe, he is demonstrating that he has the potential to be a greater idiot than he possibly is, he may be making all this noise because he's sounding out his electoral fortitude or building it up, or he may be potentially getting his electoral campaign expenses enhanced from various industries that have a stake in the debate in which case he may be caught and potentially be liable to criminal prosecution for possibly taking a bribe, which may mean he could go to jail......or not.

Try this.....
The report was produced by 620 authors and editors from 40 countries, and reviewed by more than 620 experts and governments. Before being accepted, the summary was reviewed line-by-line by representatives from 113 governments
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC_Fourth_Assessment_Report

The report referred to is that of Working Group I which deals with "physical science basis" for climate change. Not 1, or 3, or 5 authors and editors but 620 who then cross reviewed the work. Now I'm sure the 2 or 3 instances where there has been "proven" errors (either deliberate or accidental) have now been edited out and results and conclusions redrawn accordingly, but expecting a massive change in those conclusions based upon a error factor of (numerically at least) of 0.25% is somewhat hopeful....indeed I admire the optimism. Of course the exaggeration of the error factor to make it, as some claim the key data underpinning the report may persude some that the data error factor was greater than one quarter of a per cent, but 400x greater???????

But sure ruin some more peoples careers on possibles and potentials and mays and could haves, why not go sack these people based upon supposition.....how about............
Republican Senator besmirches US values of freedom and justice by insisting people get sacked for crimes they "might" have "potentially" committed...where did innocent till proven guilty go? Should the senators be sacked even tho' we cannot prove they are liars, cheats and scoundrels?
Thinks: Hmmm, might have a career with America Thinker awaiting if I keep writing this stuff.........
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Post by Zarathustra »

Finn, we are spending our tax dollars on this research. We have a right to insist upon oversight. If these people have nothing to hide, then they have nothing to fear with an investigation. I think there is certainly enough here to justify an investitation. You seem to be hung up on the "possibly" and "potential" words. But what else would you expect *before* the investigation? Of course it's all "possible" and "potential." Would you prefer them declared guilty before being proven guilty? The individual universities are investigating Mann and Jones. Jones has been suspended. I didn't see you gripe about that. Only when a Republican congressman started voicing exactly the same concerns and call for similar investigations did you seem to care.

If these people have their tax-payer supported careers ruined, they'll have no one to blame but themselves.
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Post by Avatar »

I think the oversight is good.

And as for the "suggests" and "possiblies," personally, I see it as a mark of more responsible, objective journalism. It's a hell of a lot better than claiming to have the definitive and unarguable answer, as so much journalism in the US seems to do.

You qualify your statements until there is indisputable proof, and then you keep doing it, until the proof isn't refuted.

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Post by Cybrweez »

Yea, I'd have to say in most scientific articles I see, the use of 'potential', 'suggested', 'believed' is prevalent.
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finn wrote:So a republican senator is taking his turn on the top of the mullock heap? What a suprise. With respect HLT your posting an article about what someone else is spoutring for goodness knows what reasons..........
The staff report describes four major issues revealed by the Climategate Files and the subsequent revelations:

1. The emails suggest some climate scientists were cooperating to obstruct the release of damaging information and counter-evidence.
2. They suggest scientists were manipulating the data to reach predetermined conclusions.
3. They show some climate scientists colluding to pressure journal editors not to publish work questioning the “consensus.”
4. They show that scientists involved in the report were assuming the role of climate activists attempting to influence public opinion while claiming scientific objectivity.

The report notes a number of potential legal issues raised by their Climategate investigation:

1. It suggests scientific misconduct that may violate the Shelby Amendment — requiring open access to the results of government-funded research — and the Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) policies on scientific misconduct (which were announced December 12, 2000).
2. It notes the potential for violations of the Federal False Statements and False Claims Acts, which may have both civil and criminal penalties.
3. The report also notes the possibility of there having been an obstruction of Congress in Congressional Proceeds, which may constitute an obstruction of justice.

If proven, these charges could subject the scientists involved to debarment from federally funded research, and even to criminal penalties.

By naming potential criminal offenses, Senator Inhofe raises the stakes for climate scientists and others involved. Dr. Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit has already been forced to step aside because of the Climategate FOIA issues, and Dr. Michael Mann of Penn State is currently under investigation by the university for potential misconduct. Adding possible criminal charges to the mix increases the possibility that some of the people involved may choose to blow the whistle in order to protect themselves.

Senator Inhofe believes that Dr. Hansen and Dr. Mann should be “let go” from their posts “for the good of the institutions involved.”
Hell if it was for the general good why not sack Inhofe, he is demonstrating that he has the potential to be a greater idiot than he possibly is, he may be making all this noise because he's sounding out his electoral fortitude or building it up, or he may be potentially getting his electoral campaign expenses enhanced from various industries that have a stake in the debate in which case he may be caught and potentially be liable to criminal prosecution for possibly taking a bribe, which may mean he could go to jail......or not.

Try this.....
The report was produced by 620 authors and editors from 40 countries, and reviewed by more than 620 experts and governments. Before being accepted, the summary was reviewed line-by-line by representatives from 113 governments
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC_Fourth_Assessment_Report

The report referred to is that of Working Group I which deals with "physical science basis" for climate change. Not 1, or 3, or 5 authors and editors but 620 who then cross reviewed the work. Now I'm sure the 2 or 3 instances where there has been "proven" errors (either deliberate or accidental) have now been edited out and results and conclusions redrawn accordingly, but expecting a massive change in those conclusions based upon a error factor of (numerically at least) of 0.25% is somewhat hopeful....indeed I admire the optimism. Of course the exaggeration of the error factor to make it, as some claim the key data underpinning the report may persude some that the data error factor was greater than one quarter of a per cent, but 400x greater???????

But sure ruin some more peoples careers on possibles and potentials and mays and could haves, why not go sack these people based upon supposition.....how about............
Republican Senator besmirches US values of freedom and justice by insisting people get sacked for crimes they "might" have "potentially" committed...where did innocent till proven guilty go? Should the senators be sacked even tho' we cannot prove they are liars, cheats and scoundrels?
Thinks: Hmmm, might have a career with America Thinker awaiting if I keep writing this stuff.........
Not any different from the police saying "the suspect allegedly" even when they have video taped evidence that the person committed the crime.
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Post by Ki »

Cybrweez wrote:Yea, I'd have to say in most scientific articles I see, the use of 'potential', 'suggested', 'believed' is prevalent.
I'd have to agree.
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