Reading Runes: Letting It All Go

[A Gunslinger]

Thanks, GS. Welcome back, too. And that's the first suggestion that I've heard that the Fatal Revenent is Linden...

With SRD, Fatal Revenant is likely to have multiple meanings, interpretations. Linden, Roger, Illearth Stone pieces, Esmer, even Covenant himself could all be considered "revenants" of one kind or another.

[matrixman]

I'm late to the party as usual. You must be sick of compliments by now, Wayfriend...but bloody-hellaciously good post!

Meanwhile, Covenant is in an entirely new position (to us). He's not coming back - he's been here all along. I want to wonder what that means.

I wonder what effect such a long span of time may have on Covenant. Would he even "feel" the passing of time anymore, now that he's part of the Arch? Has he been plotting and planning like Foul? Has Covenant been meeting up with Foul regularly and placing bets?

Behaviour-wise, I'd think Covenant would still be recognizably Covenant. I guess we did get sort of a glimpse of him when he took over Anele (assuming that it was Covenant). He didn't talk like some freaking alien then, so that was a relief. (In Hile Troy's case, after spending 3000 years in the Land, he was still recognizably there within Caer-Caveral.)

These enormous timespans are fun for a fantasy epic, but freaky if I had to think about them in "real" terms. How does one relate to a thousand years? 100 yrs is pushing the limit for us human beings. Far out, man...

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I like this thread too. I don't know the rules about spoilers, so I won't even think about getting into what is in Fatal Revenant here.
But responding to what Wayfriend has posited here.
How can the world, the Land, die? What could SRD be thinking?
Well, he did say the Gap series was more closely linked to Wagner's Ring Cycle, but his essay in The Real Story had me thinking, that's in Covenant, that's in Covenant, THAT'S SO in Covenant.
Most specifically, at this particular hour, Odin's spear having an avatar in Berek's staff of law, scrolled with runes.
Well there has been some discussion of runes in the book, including its title.
Anyway, Wagner's Ring and Norse Mythology point to Gotterdamerung, Ragnarok, the Twilight of the Gods.
If you want a primer in it, go get a Thor comic book from like 1979/80. Roy Thomas wrote an awesome bit.
The world is destroyed in the end.
Kind of.
The Norse mythos is built on a belief in cycles. Fire has its time, than cools, leading to frost, which leads to a need for fire, etc.
The gods go away, but some of the Gods SURVIVE Ragnarok.
Balder, the god of light is killed, precipitating Ragnarok, is brought back for the final FINAL battle and survives.
Thor, the hammereer, dies, consumed by Jormungand, the Midgard Serpent (a worm of the World's End for sure). Odin is swallowed by the Fenris Wolf, but his son Vidar kills the wolf.
Heimdell kills Loki, demon of mischief and perhaps evil, who arranged for Balder to die, is killed by Heimdell.
Surtur, the demon of flame burns Asgard, the High Earth where the Gods live.
The Rainbow Bridge is broken.
To start a new world. But Balder, Vidar, a couple of the son's of Thor, a couple of the Brothers of Odin survive.
I see Stave as an Odin figure, because of the eye, but little else. Covenant, it is odd, can be seen as a possible Balder figure, at least in dying only to be brought back for the final battle.
The rainbow bridge links Asgard to Midgard. Broken. Kind of like Kevin's Watch, the link between the Land and the "real world."
Kastenessan and the Skurj are certainly demons of flame who are on the side of badness. The giants and the dwarves are the other enemies. Man, except for the Einherjar, the warriors called to Valhalla, best of the world, handpicked by Odin, form his army.
Lot of possible parallels if your scenario is correct.
No way SRD burns down the Land without it leading to some kind of renewal.

[Relayer]

Good stuff, SG. We can't draw too many parallels, because just like he explained for the Gap, he has different purposes. And like the Gap, I'd say we can draw conceptual similarities more than specific ones. He's not trying to re-tell the Ring Cycle in the same way he did in the Gap, but certainly it's influence underlies his storytelling.

The mythology of cycles is not limited to the Norse. Many cultures, notably Hindu, have the same beliefs.

Overall, I agree w/ your conclusion... there will be a renewal of some sort.

[Bran Pendragon]

I think the Creator will use as hitherto unknown avenue to reach into the Land and save it, destroying LF in the process. When people ask why he didn't do so earlier, or why that doesn't break the Arch, he'll say "I put my hand up - that's an internal inconsistency - and I'm really annoyed that it got through, but its too late to fix it now"

[justbcos]

I really don't like the idea of losing the Land at the end of the Last Chronicles, but I can see SRD going with it. Perhaps Linden will bring down the Arch of Time, which will release the "immortal Covenant" who transcends time into the real world, where we'll find out that he is actually the Creator and the Old Beggar from the First Chronicles. And as such, he will in turn create the Land again and send himself into it... Thus the cycle begins again - birth, death, and rebirth.

Just a thought triggered by Wayfriend's essay and the post above about Norse myth... both very interesting.

[wayfriend]

The problem with cycling around to the beginning is that nothing ever ends, and so nothing is ever resolved. Resolution is important to Donaldson. Resolution is what makes it a journey of personal achievement. So I cannot see that happening. And I interpret one recent response of his in the GI as a vow that it won't happen.

[justbcos]

Good, because that would be exceedingly hokey!

[deer of the dawn]

I can tell by the way you're walking
That the past isn't letting you go
Well, there's only so long
You can take it all on
Then the past's gotta be on it's own... -Mary Chapin Carpenter, "Jubilee"

Kudos on the thoughtful post, Wayfriend. I also thought of how the Seventh Ward of Kevin's Lore was such a disaster... I'm going to have to go back through 2nd Chron but I am sure that Covenant, or maybe Hile Troy, has some thoughts along the line of, Wouldn't it be better to stop recovering lost lore and find some fresh and relevant stuff??

[ninjaboy]

"But how can we imagine that Covenant’s story will end other than triumphantly?"

You guys seem to have a oddly positive expectation. You're forgetting some very important things that's happenned.

Basically (the Obvious one) Covenant's story DID end triumphantly. But it's over..... Now he has a new lease of life (against his will) I hardly think this new hell he finds himself in will give him the chance to sacrifice something he already has.
And the other thing is that SD has a knack for ending books in ways we don't want, or aren't expecting.

And is there any chance any of the charachters are still alive in the real world? I find that scenario very unlikely. And their summoner cannot live forewver either, thus they'll all die in the Land as well.

Whatever elements of the land may live on are yet to be discovered.

[wayfriend]

You guys seem to have a oddly positive expectation. You're forgetting some very important things that's happenned.

Please remind us. I'm not sure what you're speaking about.

And is there any chance any of the charachters are still alive in the real world? I find that scenario very unlikely. And their summoner cannot live forewver either, thus they'll all die in the Land as well.

Surely Joan is dead in the RW. However, there's nothing sure about Linden, Jeremiah, or Roger. Remember, Covenant might have lived had he chosen to leave the Land to it's own demise - an author always has the option of having the knife, or the bullet, be less fatal than it looks. And the Final Cs have been nothing but surprises.

Joan died in the real world -- but she lives in the Land. Who knows when those whom she has summoned would need to be called back? Foul worked hard to get himself just this kind of option. It's totally new territory - SRD can have it mean anything.

You know what I secretly hope? That Covenant gets restored to life in the real world, somehow. I see that as a possibility --- a distant and unlikely possibility, but not one that's ruled out.

But if you need hope, think on this: Donaldson has revealed that the world of the Land would "end". He didn't say "destroyed", or "lost", or "failed" - there are possibilities of hope in that word. Covenant died, but he succeeded in shaping the meaning of his life as he did so. Could not the Land "die" in the same way?

Before you become convinced that things must be as bad as the seem, think on this.

I am (I admit this freely) actively trying to mess with your expectations.

Malicious, I know. But writers are like that. <grin>

(06/16/2005)

[aliard]

I wonder if the overall end will be something more like Jeremiah's creation in his own trapped mind....

for some reason it is a thought I have not been able to completely get around.

The creator and his own despite for that creation.....

I am not sure how TC fits in then, though.....

It just occured to me that the age of the land might just be measured in the years that a child has been alive in our world given the scale differences...

[ellll]

I confess it...

Wet eyes upon reading your ORIGINAL post. Let it ALL GO...Hard to not have wet eyes when contemplating some areas of Donaldson's genius....

Runes is a transcendental work; make no mistake...; and there never was any doubt in my mind the purpose Donaldson intended. The entire Chronicles will become the new ring series...not after the author J.R.R....., No..never that simple...;

Instead, after Richard Wagner....

THANKS FOR SAYING IT SO PERFECTLY.......

John (Johnny)..ellll